Which doesn’t conflict with anything I said. The fact is, without an election or some very good and up to date opinion polling, we have no indication of whether a majority of Palestinians favor Hamas or would prefer different leadership. Hamas’s PR tells us nothing, nor does the fact that some non zero number of Palestinians were celebrating a cease fire (and who knows if even these Palestinians favor Hamas or not).
They’ve had elections. Palestinians have a pretty good idea of what to expect. Did you think hamas’s actions in the past would be different from current events?
Elections 15 years or so ago don’t tell us anything about present day public opinion of the Palestinians in Gaza.
Just face it - we don’t know.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Hamas has popular support, but the electorate has been traumatized. People’s votes aren’t always rational, but that doesn’t justify committing atrocities against them, especially when the power is so disproportionately in favor of Israel.
Has Israel really been committing atrocities though? Look, I hate the idea of war, I wish it didn’t exist, but airstrikes are just how modern war is waged today. When I hear “atrocities” I think of soldiers going into a village and wantonly slaughtering civilians out of sheer malice. When I noted earlier that I used to be more on the pro-Israel side of these debates, this is one of the reasons why - for the past 20 years or basically my entire adult life, as long as I can remember, many of the critics of Israel acted like they were the Khmer Rouge or something. I just felt that too much hyperbole was used to describe their policies. Now, in more recent years as I’ve read more about the conflict, I feel that their policies are way out of line, as far as continuing an ongoing occupation of a stateless people who are forced to live in terrible conditions with no real light at the end of the tunnel. Still though, I can’t put Israel’s military in the “atrocities” category, unless every air strike that kills civilians is considered an atrocity. Again, I think it’s terrible that it happens, I wish it didn’t happen, but it seems to be in the nature of asymmetrical warfare.
Many of Israel’s critics simultaneously identify with Israel as a modern society that is democratic, technologically advanced, and otherwise humane. It’s important to send the message to an ally that barbarism won’t be tolerated, even if the scale is nowhere near that of the Khmer Rouge. I’d say precisely the same about the United States as well.
Sure, they’ve had elections - fifteen years ago. As soon as Hamas got into power they stopped having them. I don’t think you can argue that the current government of Gaza is a representative democracy at this point.
That’s their problem not Israel’s.
Somewhat relevant, and possibly a hopeful note:
Using that logic we shouldn’t have bombed Germany because the nazis came into power and weren’t the will of the people.
If Hamas is the controlling party then shooting rockets at Israel is an act of war. The military response is exactly what any other nation would do.
Considering the lengths Israel went to warn civilians I think it is unreasonable to criticize them because they are militarily stronger than the attacking country. The idea that Israel can’t respond because an innocent person might get killed is ludicrous.
If a crowd of people attack me and some of them have machetes then I’m shooting back and I’m aiming at the people with the machetes. If someone NOT carrying a machete gets killed then it was on them to stop the attack in the first place. It is really just that simple.
Again, there are recent polling numbers to clarify which party is preferred by Palestinians.
A poll released by a Palestinian organization in late March found both Fatah and Hamas unlikely to win a majority of votes in what was then expected to be a May election. Fatah had an overall lead which would vanish if dissident factions split off to form their own candidates. In spite of troubles associated with Hamas in power (i.e. the continued blockade), Gazans were evenly split between Hamas and Fatah.
The head of the Palestinian organization conducting the poll had the following take (from a Times of Israel interview in March):
“It seems clear that Hamas does not have a chance to have a majority in the parliament,” Shikaki said, adding that the most likely scenario would be a national unity government or a Fatah-led coalition including smaller parties."
“He cautioned, however, that unforeseen events — such as a prisoner exchange between Hamas and Israel or Israel’s targeted killing of a senior terrorist — could swing public opinion in Hamas’s favor between now and the election.”
It seems quite possible that “unforeseen events” (just-concluded hostilities between Hamas and Israel) have changed public opinion in Hamas’ favor, given reactions following the cease-fire there and elsewhere (i.e. perceptions that Hamas “won”). But there’s no general election in sight, and it continues to be in Abbas’ self-interest to prevent one.
Regardless of what coalition is in power they’re responsible for the actions of their citizens. If Windsor ON launched rockets on Detroit it’s up to Canada to arrest and convict those responsible. This hasn’t happened in Gaza. The party in power is the one launching the rockets. This is an act of war.
Right, I mean it isn’t seriously disputed that Gaza is ran by Hamas, with the PA having minimal to no authority there. It is not even likely that would change if there were new elections as Hamas would be unlikely to give up power without a fight.
There is a big difference between the (valid, imo) recognition that Israel’s actions in large have done a lot to build barriers to peace, and have involved things that are not considered valid in terms of international law (annexing lands, moving settlers into the Occupied Territories, the specifics of how it controls access into/out of Gaza) and the frankly deranged expectation that “there should be proportionality between how damaging Israeli attacks are on Hamas relative to how damaging Hamas attacks are on Israel.” What you’re actually espousing there is a conception of war in which the only legal combat is perfectly proportional between both sides…which is frankly hilariously unrealistic and silly.
If the government of Gaza run by Hamas is launching thousands of rockets towards Israel then it’s Israel’s problem, too. Hence the recent conflict.
You were talking about Palestinian elections and that is their issue, not Israel’s. The rocket attack was an act of war which Israel responded to.
I don’t ever see a time when hamas is not planning and engaging in attacks. If the Palestinians don’t want war then they will have to remove hamas.
If there are no elections in Gaza (because we’re talking about Gaza, not “all Palestinians” and indeed the West Bank is NOT controlled by Hamas) and the ruling thugs are thus settled in for good, and those same thugs are intent on a forever war with Israel then YES, the lack of elections in Gaza, and the result of any elections that happened or might, in the future, happen in Gaza, are in fact also Israel’s problem, because Hamas causes problems for Israel.
That’s not a good analogy. Hitler’s military invaded multiple countries; it also committed industrialized scale mass murder. Nazi Germany was a regional, if not global, menace in the 1930s. Hamas is an extremist regime that leads a state that isn’t even universally recognized. Israel is disproportionately more powerful than Hamas, and it inflicts massive suffering on Palestinian civilians. There is a reason Hamas is popular among Palestinians, and as I’ve said over the years, Israel would be wise to recognize the ‘why’.
I’ve said this over and over again: Israel’s and the hardcore Zionist position puts Israel in danger. And this last conflict exposed why (perhaps in ways that even I did not anticipate). About 20% of Israel’s population is Arab. And the Arabs within Israel are becoming increasingly agitated with Israel’s hyper-aggression. Again, I totally understand why Israel would go after Hamas - assassinate the fuckers for all I care. But when they topple 20-story apartment complexes and crush hotels and other businesses, Israel is taking away any sympathy that anyone could have for them. They must support a two-state solution - or if nothing else, give them a fucking reservation the way we do with Native Americans.
A lot of this supposes Israel has a goal of generating sympathy, I think there’s a common and fundamental lack of appreciation for what the far right position in Israel is. Their position is they won a war, they’re going to keep the land, and every new settler moved in and every step further away from a Palestinian state, is a victory, no matter anything else.
Arguably the recent flare up is more fuel for the far right because it furthers a general perception that, unlike what a lot of people in here are saying–that Israel is winning and getting away with what it wants to do here. Palestine and the Palestinians have arguably never been weaker than they are right now, and Israel has never been stronger. There’s a weird belief that somehow Israel has gotten worse off as it has gotten more right wing, but from a security perspective that just isn’t true. Israel is much safer and less exposed to terrorist risks now than in the recent past.
It’s honestly like the people who argue Russia only got weaker by seizing Crimea, okay, but Russia doesn’t see it that way. Israel’s right sees a world where they’ve signed peace treaties with several Arab states, normalized relationships, gotten the United States and several other countries to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, largely gotten away with annexation of East Jerusalem etc.
Like a bunch of AOCs and Ilhan Omar’s not liking Israel is a very small price to pay for the Israeli right. That’s one element of this I think just isn’t addressed much–you guys are assuming for some reason things are bad for Israel, when the right in Israeli politics see the present as the best things have ever been. It is highly unlikely the conflict ends well for the Palestinians unless you find a way for the Israeli right to get on board with the internationalist and Israeli left’s goals for the situation, which is a pretty heavy lift.
More on Hamas boosting its popularity among Palestinians thanks to its Pyrrhic “victory” over Israel.
“Many Palestinians have come to see the PA as part of an entrenched and increasingly unbearable system of Israeli domination that extends far beyond the occupied West Bank, where the PA administers major population centers under overarching Israeli control.”
“Their anger boiled over last month with protests and clashes in Jerusalem that eventually spread across the region, drawing in Palestinian citizens of Israel and triggering the Gaza war.”
“It was on vivid display at Friday prayers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the combustible holy site at the heart of the recent unrest, when thousands of Palestinian worshippers chanted “Dogs of the authority, get out!” in response to a sermon from a PA-appointed mufti.”
“That was in sharp contrast to raucous rallies held at Al-Aqsa and elsewhere in support of Hamas and Mohammed Deif, the shadowy commander of the group’s armed wing…”
“But it also allowed Hamas to portray itself as a wily defender of Jerusalem, to which both sides in the Middle East conflict have deeply emotional ties, and to say it had struck a blow against the far more powerful Israel.”
“Mkhaimar Abusada, a political science professor at Al-Azhar University in Gaza, says that even there support for Hamas has risen amid widespread disappointment with the PA.”
I’d note the PA has never had much legitimacy with Palestinians, it’s one reason negotiations with them have not frequently been fruitful–under Arafat it arguably reached its peak but even he knew he didn’t have the support of the Palestinian population at large to engage in a genuine negotiation at Camp David where he could “horse trade” and give up some things in exchange for other things, there has just never been a Palestinian leader who can easily represent the Palestinian people due to their fractured and decentralized nature.
Mahmoud Abbas has had legitimacy issues for ages, even back when he was still in his first “legitimate” term (which ended in 2009, he’s basically just stayed in office since then without being reelected.)