[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
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Cite for Israel targeting civilians rather than terrorists?
QUOTE]
Yep that took a long time…
Long time ago - yep.
Were they “guilty” - yep
Does that justify assasination - nope. Bring them to justice via “proper” means, not attack them in a third country. That is terrorism.
Israel is basically saying they are above international law.
This does not mean I support terrorism, but this sort of response is no less wrong, and just perpetuates everything.
I think we can be pretty sure that they would not use them for that nowadays
@Sevastopol
To be honest, I reckon most Israelis would not have given a toss if the whole population of S. Lebanon had been wiped out - except for their Christian allies on the South West of course.
USA opinion held them back, but I think they were a bit concerned about the opinion of other countries
Aristotle said something along the lines of a man being ‘good’ because of what he does, not because of his motives.
I don’t know whether you’ve ever been anywhere where someone just wants to kill you.
I live in a town slightly North of London, once I was in Tel Aviv on business, when my colleague yelled ‘get in here’
Would you believe it, we were roaring with delight !
Incidentally I am looking forward to the next burglar, I just missed the last ones foot by inches when chasing the swine out of my spare bedroom window.
People get kind of odd when they are gratuitously assaulted.
In response to me asking for a cite where Israel targeted non-terrorists, you give me a cite where Israel targeted terrorists?
I think we’re done here.
Actually thats the point, I am not denying that what the “terrorists” did was wrong, but that does not justify targeting them in a foreign country. You are saying that targeting criminals / terrorists (the differentiation is in motivation, but an act of terrorism is by definition a criminal act - they should be dealt with the same way you target all criminals) with terrorism is ok?
The whole point of the ME problems is that everybody is using everybody elses actions to justify further bloodshed,…i.e Israel says - look at the evil terrorists operating from Lebanon, lets bomb lebanon, Lebanese citizens say look at the evil Israeli, bombing my country for the actions of terrorists - I will retailate. its never ending.
Responding to terrorism with terrorism does not work.
Really ?
I reckon it is quite effective
I also reckon it is very inconsiderate to expect a non-involved state like Italy to waste its resources trying a terrorist, or to risk setting itself up for ‘retaliation’ because it grants an export licence. Or ‘retaliation’ for arresting the blighter in the first place.
Much more sensible to have a friendly relationship with the state’s security force, top the swine and let, say Italy, spout off about violation etc. while they are really smirking behind their hands.
People will use /anything/ as ‘justification’ for what they are going to do anyway
I would say that Hizbollah won, hands down. They are now esteemed in the arab world, and they have shown that they can fight and win. Israel lost-by their concern for civilian lives, they showed their weakness-and weakness in the Arab world invites attack. So the outlook for israel is grim-Hizbollah will bring in more (and guided) rockets-the next assualt upon Israel will feature Shahab III rockets hitting tel Aviv. And the Israelis learned that whn faced by a fanatic enemy (armed with modern anti-tank missiles), armor and tanksare a death trap. Which means the next war will be terrible-the Israelis will use high-explosive ordnance, which will kill thousands od civilians.
Any examples where that has worked? I’m coming up empty.
WRT Hezbollah?
They have failed to meet the requirements of the Geneva Convention (Section V) by not allowing POV communication with the outside world (they didn’t even allow information regarding their wellbeing).
They have failed to meet UNSC resolution 1559.
They seem to refuse meeting UNSC resolution 1701 by not agreeing to disarm.
They do not accept international borders (Sheba farms not belonging to Lebanon).
Shall I continue?
You know that
I know that
Does anyone else know that ?
Hezbollah have demonstrated that they can make life thoroughly miserable for their friends, and they have stirred up a hornet’s nest that will pitch into full scale war next time, rather than a choreographed minuet.
I would suspect, but not advise, an instantaneous and callous reaction to any further provocation.
Sorry you had to endure this awful conflict. One nitpick though, the purpose of the attack on Lebanon could not have been to reduce shelling of Israeli cities, since the Hezbollah missiles were fired in response to Israeli airstrikes.
You might have to re-check that one.
You might have more luck with noting how Count Folke Bernadotte was killed, or how King David Hotel was destroyed.
From your cite:
|At 9:05 AM local time (06:05 UTC), on 12 July, 2006, Hezbollah initiated a diversionary Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and on the villages of Even Menahem and Mattat.[27] At the same time, a ground contingent of Hezbollah attacked two Israeli armored Humvees along the Israel-Lebanon border, near the village of Zar’it, capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three.[27] Five others were killed later on the Lebanese side of the border during a mission to rescue the two captured soldiers.[28]|
A funny kind of response - Katyusha missiles as ‘diversions’ while enticing a response. What came first the Katyusha ‘chickens’ or Israels outraged ‘eggs’.
Those missiles are what lit the blue touch paper
If the Iranians [oops Hezbollah] had not used Katyushas, then the thing would have just been a skirmish.
I hate to say this, but if I were running training for the IDF, I would select the best recruits for a short spell on the Lebanese border.
It is called ‘live fire’ practise, and it is a lot more effective if you know that your assailant really wants to kill you.
Firing a Katyusha changes the game entirely.
I see no winners, but all losers,The Arab people have lost the most, they are still under strict laws,not free to speak for themselves(in most cases),they are only educated by the radicals and in a sense are brain washed, they are like in a prison.
Hezbollah is a hate group; in keeping their hatred going they miss out on the best of what life has to offer. To me they are like a mentally disturbed person who thinks things are fine and are losing out on a better life because they are stuck in a rut and too disturbed to have the sense to get out.They hand the Lebanese a few things but look at the destruction it has caused their families. Lebanon is being run by Hezbollah not the government they were supposed to have elected.
Israel has lost because they refused to act like the Hezbollah terrorists, had they chose to really win, they could have totally destroyed Lebonon, that was not their intention, they gave the Lebaneses people more credit than they deserved, had the Lebanese government stopped Hezbollah before, it would not have the destruction it now has, and many lives would have been spared. They chose a few loves of bread from the Hezbollah people(who deluded them into thinking they were saviors) over a true democracy.
Monavis
About half way along the beach in Tel Aviv, there is a nasty little museum dedicated to the Irgun and similar unpleasant specimems.
I would like to bulldoze it.
There were also firebomb incidents in Egyptian cinemas
While, at the time, and still now, I reckon we should have arrested Begin the moment he stepped foot in the UK, I do not hold grudges against the children of people who committed outrages - or even old guys who were conscripted into the Waffen SS at the age of 17 in 1944.
My Israeli friends are very embarrassed about The King David, I can’t forgive them as I know they were infants (like born in 1941 and later) at the time.
There is a story that the last British serviceman to be hanged was actually Jewish, somehow I suspect that it is like the way the Singaporese rationalize not disliking the Japanese.
If even one half of what my uncle told me is true, then we British were not that pleasant during WWII and afterwards.
Thank you. So do I.
In addition to FRDE’s reply #52, I would like to mention that Israel knew about Hezbullah’s rockets. It was clear that these rockets were not for display. What I said is that I believe it was expected of IDF to be able to stop them fast(er).
I did. I replied. Or are you refering to something else?
Partly that, partly that, for some strange reason the 75% of the Lebanonese chose not to wipe out the 25% that they hate.
I expected them to do that, so I believe did the Israelis, perhaps they were intimidated by Hezbollah, perhaps they did not fancy slaughtering 800,000 refugees.
Perhaps they are quietly ‘arresting’ undesireable males and shipping them off to Syria (or a hole in the ground).
Personally I do not care much about ‘democracy’, especially when it lumps us with the likes of Blair and Bush - not to mention the ‘Palestinians’ with Hamas and the Lebanon with Hezbollah.
@Monavis, what is incredible about this ‘war’ is that there were so few casualties
Of course it is unfair that the Israelis have air raid shelters in every home
Re op:
Who won - weapons manufacturers.
Who lost - humanity.
Apart from increasing radicalisation of both sides of the conflict, we are left with over a thousand people killed, many thousands injured, hundereds of thousands displaced and a country ruined.
**
Israel**
Pros
Showed their neighbours they should not be messed with, and are even prepared to respond disproportionately to agression. Nobody f*cks with the Israel. Israels neighbours will think twice about doing anything like kidnap soldiers again.
Showed thay are prepared to go to serious extremes (risking breach of international law) to protect their soldiers.
Cons
Very bad PR - people see the amount of destruction inflicted by Israel, not so much the terrorisation of Israelis huddled in bunkers for weeks.
Evident that Israel is not willing to become involved in a ground war.
Evident they were not able to stop rockets being fired into Israel.
Evident their intelligence was not able to remove Hasan Nasralla
Hezbollah
Pros
Shored support from Lebanese people. Especially now that Hezbollah will become integral to rebuilding and providing social support.
Won respect and support also from other arabs in the region, who see them as repelling IDF for the second time.
Showed they are a very effective geurilla force.
Cons
Lost hundreds? of soldiers.
Lots of bad PR in western media.
Sorry, where was the bit about Hezzbolah firing rockets into Israeli cities?
It seems there were missiles fired at villages. I did not know that - I thought it was all attacks on military that started the conflict.
Lots of good responses to the thread. I’m running between meetings so no time to really read through everything yet.
And you don’t think people live in villages? Or is it that the people living in villages aren’t worth protecting, defending? Are they worth less to you than people in cities?
What universe do you live in?? In general if you directly attack a nations citizens they aren’t going to be too happy about it…at least in the universe I live in.
-XT
Iran and the Hezbollah extremists would be delighted with that. Their goal is very straightforward - keep the Middle East in a state of chaos until such time as Israel is destroyed. Every outbreak of war between Israel and its neighbours plays straight into their hands.
A couple of years ago it looked moderately possible that a peaceful settlement might be achieved - now, curtesy of this ill-conceived bungle, everyone is back behind their old battle lines. The Israelis are focused on keeping the Palestinians and Arabs subjugated until the rest of time, the Arabs and the Palestinians are convinced their only hope for peace and prosperity is to exterminate the Israelis.
A country still in the process of piecing itself back together after a devastating civil war is reluctant to tackle its single biggest and best-armed faction, which not even the Israelis can supress effectively. A strange reason indeed.