Although I do not think that either side can claim an obvious moral high ground in this conflict, I think that a few things bear consideration against justifying the use of rockets as a form of retribution.
-Palestinian police, although ultimately responsible for the safety of those who they take prisoner, did make at least reasonable efforts to stop the mob that eventually killed the soldiers
-By the same note, one of the soldiers was returned alive to Israeli forces, he died subsequent to his delivery to Israeli forces
-The rocket attacks had no ability what so ever to possibly save lives, they were not used in an overly discriminate manner, and were used in the presence of emergency responders
-Revenge will fail to bring lost soldiers back to life
Because of the dynamics in the Middle East, retaliation is completely acceptable. None of this “turn the other cheek” shit. You kill one of ours, we kill one of yours.
I am not going to say I’m defending this practice, just explaining it. (OK, I’m defending this practice–what do you want them to do? Sit back and let the Palestinian militants run rampant?)
So to answer your original question, yes. They were justified in the retaliatory attacks.
I realise that many people will disagree, but try to judge the Israelis’ actions by THEIR standards, not your own.
Think back, everyone, and try to remember just how angry you were after the World Trade Center attack. To say the Israelis have been forebearing in the face of incredible pressure to be otherwise is an understatement. What’s happening now is a perfectly understandable emotional response to the constant provocations of a people who have them completely surrounded.
Arafat had a chance to move this region closer to peace and he got greedy. I have to give the Isrealis credit for offering as much as they did.
Of course, now they are paying the price and should probably take back everything they conceded, and never negotiate with the terrorist Arafat again.
BTW…I also wish the children could be left alone. IMHO having their parents keep them at home instead of letting them go out and throw rocks at soldiers with guns would be a good first step.
I fail to see how rocketing the house will have any benefit. These are * riots, * not a coordinated military action under Arafat’s control. This is just a venting of frustration at the cost of others.
They arrest a suspect and take him to the police station. My friends and I go riot around the police station. You’d better believe I’d expect to get shot when I broke into the police station and tried to kill the suspect.
The fact of the matter is that it belies a deeper problem :
The Palestinian police are unable to control their population. Even if the government wants peace, the Palestinian people still want to riot. Therefore, the current government has no mandate for peace negotiations. It is like the leader of North Korea coming to me and asking for peace with the United States.
While the jury is still out, it appears that the Palestinian police if not aided and abetted the mob, at least did little to stop them. There are some stories that they may have incited the crowd or helped them.
If the Israelis can’t communicate with the Palestinian people through words by messages through the government, they need to communicate by actions. Next time you are being hunted down by a mob, I’d like to see you try and negotiate. Israel is communicating in the only way she thinks she can – action to respond to action. I truly believe that when the Palestinian people honestly want to sit down and talk peace, Israel will be there in no time flat.
It is very simple: The Palestinians have chosen violence. Let them have as much as they can bear.
Yes, they are an incontrollable mob. That does not excuse them. If a mob assaults a police station anywhere else you bet they can expect to be shot.
They murdered three people who had done absolutely nothing to deserve it except be Israelis. I say the Israelis were too kind in warning of the attack so the people could clear the buildings. I would have let them have it.
Look, the Palestinians have been the ones to choose violence as a means to resolve this. Ok, so let them have it and they cannot complain when they get whooped since it was their choice.
And sending their kids to throw stones and putting them in harm’s way doesn’t say much in their favor either.
Why not? They deliberately started the riots, now they can stop them. Arafat might as well directly ordered the Palestinians to riot. He propagandized them- riled them up, then ordered stopped, so the men had nothing else to do BUT riot. Since every time he has done this, there has been riotings, stonings, etc, he either knwos what would happen, or deliberately planned it. I would bet on the latter.
He was offered 90% of what he asked for at the peace accord, but wanted the one thing he KNEW the Isrealis would say NO to, they already said so. So after making a unacceptable demand, he walked out. Then the riots started. Surprize! Arafat, IMHO, is not interested in Peace- once a terrorist, always a terrorist. If he HAD wanted peace, he could have signed the accords with the caveat that he would re-open the Jerusalem question again, later.
The thing is, they didn’t shoot the rioters with rockets (well, they did shoot them with guns, but that it much more understandable); they shot TV stations, police stations, boats, etc with rockets.
This is needless violence not being used in self-defence. Of course, if this had been done to us (wait, I think it was) we would all be (rightfully) pissed off. Because it’s being done to a group of people * some of whom * happen to be rioting makes it ok? When English soccer fans riot in Scotland, should Scotland rocket English television (or vice versa, as it were)?
I’m all in favor of using appropriate force in self-defence. This was not a case of neither.
I also read on CNN.com that they gave them 3 hours notice that the attack was coming so they could evacuate.
Now, personally, I thought that was pretty stupid – that’s like saying: “You guys have 3 hours to get ready to shoot us down.” But, hey, that was their choice.
I agree. But it would help if the Palestinians would quit sending their children into the heart of the rioting.
I’m not talking about the kid who was trapped with his father in the crossfire – that was beyond horrible. I’m talking about the other kids who go in throwing rocks and molotov cocktails and the like and end up getting killed.
I recently read a book about gang life, called My Bloody Life, by Reymundo Sanchez (not his real name). A lot of what he says there reminds me of this situation. The gangs continue because each affront is followed by revenge. You shoot one of our guys, so we shoot two of yours. Then you shoot three of ours. Ad infinitum.
You’ll never make peace when you’re continually involved in revenge. In the Middle East, the extremists know this. They have purposely engaged in attacks designed to halt the peace process. While that isn’t the case most recently (when more than just the most extreme have been involved), it has historically. And the worst part is that the non-extremists continually fall for it by exacting revenge and letting it spin out of control!
Relating to the kids, in the gang life, kids are fair game if they’re in a rival territory. Why? Because they will just grow up to be your rival, so you might as well take 'em out when you can. I think similar thinking infects some in the Middle East – certainly those terrorists who would blow up a busload of children, for example. If you think of them as future oppressors rather than as children, it’s a lot easier to kill them.
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*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
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Menachem Begin and his fellow “terrorists” during Israel’s birth would disagree.
It bothers me when people say that neither side in this conflict is behaving honorably. The Israeli’s always have and currently are behaving honorably. They resist the use of violence until forced into it, then they use it, decisively, brutally and successfully.
Look at Entebbe, the air raids on Egypt’s Air Force, etc, etc, etc.
Understand that, as Americans, we haven’t seen fighting like this since out Revolutionary War. These riots are taking place in people’s front yards. Remember that scene from The Patriot, when Gibson tells everyone not to make war with England because it will take place too close to home? That is what is happening in Israel.
The Israelis are currently showing the same tact, class and efficiency they have always shown.
I will not say it was justified to use that sort of violence to attack media centers, but I believe the reason why the Israelis bombed the radio transmitter is that the Voice of Palestine was transmitting the most poisonous and inflammatory propaganda you can imagine. I heard it when I was there last week, and couldn’t believe my ears. But I’m afraid many Palestinians did.
Ummm… I seem to remember something called the Civil War or the War Between the States or something like that… didn’t Atlanta get burned down or was that just a movie? Shoulda paid more attention in history class, I guess…
So opening fire on a lynch mob is too much to expect? Isn’t that the job expected of police officers when faced with a rioting mob? Also they had radio and telephone communications. Why didn’t they use them to call for reinforcement or extraction? Israeli commandos have a deserved reputation for hostage rescue and quick response and a helicopter or ten could have been there in time had they been notified.
If a cop takes a prisoner that cop is then responsible for guarding that prisoner. The fact that all they got was a beating (and I have not seen any real confirmation that they even got beat down) before they haded the soldiers over says that they just didn’t give a shit.
Massad should have Arafat targeted for an example. Get DNA from every single body, determine who is who and trim some family trees down to the roots.
Anyone who thinks that retaliation on a grand scale probably does not remember the rocket attacks that Israel used on Lebanon , in the early 80’s after the bombing in Beirut, which were in response to several bombings traced back to Lebanon. The rocket attacks worked.
The reason for these massive attacks is simple, and direct. If you are a terrorist cell or involved in organized violence then someone will know about it. Probably your neighbors. If you live next door to someone who killed an Israeli soldier or citizen and you really care about yourown welfare and that of your family then turn the terrorist in. You know what to expect, either prevent it or plan on apartment hunting real soon.
Just to put a face on it, here is an excerpt from PM Barak’s discussion with CNN’s Senior International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour on October 12 (formatting is mine):
I agree 100%, sdimbert. Israel is not the agressor here. (Loved the posted excange b/t Barak and Amanpour). I’m surprised the Israel didn’t hit them harder. It seems to me they really pulled their punches compared to what they could have done.
Arafat is a terrorist. Of course he wants war and fighting. As long as there is “peace,” Arafat has no cause. He ceases to be important. By encouraging a culture of violence among his followers, Arafat makes sure that he and his cause will not be ignored.
It’s too bad that Israel’s retaliation is just what serves Arafat’s purpose; but they can’t just sit back and let “silence assumes acceptance” be the call of the day.
