Visit AI and HRW and check out what is done across the world. See my first post in this thread for a comparison of Israel’s less than stellar record and the truly horrific record of torture by the PA. Let alone dozens of other countries. None of which excuses Israeli offenses when they exist.
What exactly is HH claiming Sharon did? He failed to prevent a massacre from occurring under his watch and was punished for his negligence. Is that it?
BTW testy Israel used to officially sanction interrogation methods that were declared as torture by human rights groups … shaking, being kept awake, being forced to maintain uncomfortable positions, being forced to listen to loud bad music … for over the last three years Israel has outlawed those practices. The Chump may just be behind in the news. Wotta surprise.
Again, to Chumpsky this time. Name any country in a comparable situation (defensive war and occupation of lands with violent civil unrest, or urban warfare, hell even colonials and their occupations) who has done better. I don’t think you can find one. Because they violate some treaty somewhere doesn’t mean that they are doing far worse than others placed in a comparable situation. I don’t like the idea of settlers, I don’t defend settlements, even in a stretch I can see how they form legitimate military targets in the mind of some (although charging into a house and shooting children asleep in bed is still a war crime). But all in all, the Israeli response to the intifadas IMHO has been quite mild, and the Israeli occupation since 1967 cannot be considered the “some of the worst treatment of human beings on the face of the Earth.” Hell, the past 35 years has seen human rights atrocities that dwarf the West Bank and Gaza by orders of magnitude – the Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, Kosovo, Irian Jaya, the Taliban, Ethiopia/Eritrea, South African response to the Sharpeville riots and apartheid in general (which was a governmental policy for people living within the country, not occupied territory), Iraq and the Kurds, slavery in much of Africa, China’s treatment of political prisoners, Pinochet’s Chile, Cuba. The list goes on and on and I think Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians has been far better on average.
I’m sorry Sharon’s role at Sabra and Shantila went beyond, failing to prevent a massacre he was complicit and held responsibilty for the actions of the phalangists via the chain of command and the IDF who provisded auxillary support during the massacre.
Even in Israel there was an outcry against the role of the IDF in the massacre and the inquiry recommended that Sharon should never be allowed to hold high office again.
The compalint aginst Sharon lodged in a Belgium court:
I asked above about the “official policy of torture” you mentioned. If the Israelis have an “official policy of torture,” then what is it? If this was just some sort of Commie-babble then please let me know.
Thanks for that, I appreciate the info. I understand from that site that the High Court in Israel has banned the use of torture. If that is so, then there is no “official policy of torture.” On the other hand, the reference you mentioned also states that torture still exists. If both these facts are true, then why aren’t there some IDF folks in jail for this? Is it just winked at as long as it’s done to the Palestinians?
Jesus, Middle Eastern countries. What a snake pit. I’m in Saudi now and can see their torture center from my office window.
Hmm, well, if we grant your absurd premises that Israel is in a defensive position, how about Vietnam after its invasion of Cambodia in 1978?
The point is, though, that Israel should not be in the West Bank or Gaza, and that Israel bears sole responsibility for the problems it has created. Palestinians are fully entitled to fight back against their oppressors.
I bring back the analogy of the wife beater. Suppose a man has been beating his wife for years, and his wife starts to get bitter. Do you blame her for acting out? Do you justify the wife beater because the wife has started to fight back, even if what she does may not, in normal times, be justified?
The point is, though, that Israel should not be in the West Bank or Gaza, and that Israel bears sole responsibility for the problems it has created.*
Right. Those wars in 1948, 1967 and 1973 (two of the three, '48 and '73, direct Arab invasions and the third a preemptive strike to prevent one) had absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s statements like the above, which attribute only Israel with responsibility and totally exonerate the Arab states roles in using the Palestinians as political pawns, which keep the peace process from moving forward. Just asking Chumpsky, but how do you excuse Jordan and Egypt not granting the Palestinians statehood, or anything even resembling independance, when they were in control of the West Back/Gaza for 20 odd years from 1948-1967?
Palestinians are fully entitled to fight back against their oppressors.
So then is Israel fully entitled to fight back against terrorist attacks? Or should they just turn the other cheek everytime a suicide bomb goes off in a bus in Tel Aviv?
Skip, the six day war happened in 1967, 35 years ago, Israel cannot justify such a long occupation. I’m not going to go into the issue of wether the war was a pre-emptive strike against an imminent attack or a cynical land-grab, but the Arabs are not a homogenouis unit just because, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria fired launched a few limited strikes back in 1967 does not give Israel the right to punish Palestinian civilians in 2002.
By failing to recognise that the Arabs have legitimate grievances against Israel that stretch back to the arrival of the first zionist colonists and the ethnic cleansing of the 1948 war of independance, you are attempting to put the blame for all the subseqent conflicts on the Arabs.
I am not justifying Israel’s occupation of the territories. Even I feel they need to get out of there, but they can only do it when peace is viable. Common Israeli’s for the most part wish to have nothing to do with the territories but until their own safety is secure they can not just pack up and withdraw.
The issue I bring up is Chumpsky attributing all of the blame of the Palestinians to the Israeli’s while completely ignoring the Arab states roles in their plight.
Go for a walk up to the top of Table Mountain, and try to convince Lion’s Kop to face the other way - you’ll have more success than trying to get sense out of Chumpsky or MC on any issue regarding Israel!
Or try to convince yourself that the people putting bombs in New York Bagel in Seapoint have a legitimate beef with the Jewish Occupying Force in Cape Town as an extension of Israel. It happened 3 days after I ate there.
Chumpsky
I know next to nothing about the Vietnam/Cambodia occupation. I will do my reading. But was there violent Cambodian opposition to occupation? My question was any occupying force (or any force whatsoever) encountering violent civil opposition.
Amnesty International says that Israel has stopped what was labelled as torture. Were those “sworn affadavits” from the same people who swore that saw refrigerator trucks carting bodies away from Jenin? I trust AI for accuracy. Certainly torture is now prohibited by law. I’d imagine that offenses (keeping people tied up and sleep deprived) still exist, but there simply is no “official policy of torture”. Claiming that there is is either a mistake or a purposeful lie.
Allegations made in a Belgium court are hardly proof that Sharon was complicit. He may have been. But all that was proven was negligence. That was enough for the Israeli board of inquiry.
So, Chump, how long have you stopped beating your wife?
Amnesty International says that Israel has stopped what was labelled as torture. Were those “sworn affadavits” from the same people who swore that saw refrigerator trucks carting bodies away from Jenin? I trust AI for accuracy. Certainly torture is now prohibited by law. I’d imagine that offenses (keeping people tied up and sleep deprived) still exist, but there simply is no “official policy of torture”. Claiming that there is is either a mistake or a purposeful lie.
Allegations made in a Belgium court are hardly proof that Sharon was complicit. He may have been. But all that was proven was negligence. That was enough for the Israeli board of inquiry.
So, Chump, how long have you stopped beating your wife?
I’m not speaking up for the record of the Vietnamese in general, but Chumpsky’s assertion regards the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia between Decemeber 1978 and Spetember 1989, not actions taken domestically in Vietnam.
I tried your mantra, but it keeps on coming out “BBC is not an unbiased news source”, “BBC is not an unbiased news source”.
Funny thing that. Out of a whole page, you managed to pick a single sentence that makes an unequivocal statement, without mentioning (in passing perhaps) that the source is not a BBC policy document, but is an extract of a presentation by an independant producer and is preceded by the following …
You can obfuscate all you like, but the BBC still does not call Hamas terrorists, but referred to IRA as terrrorists. Until you can explain the difference, your argument stinks.
Anyhow, when or where have I said honestreporting.com is unbiased or is even a news source. It has its own declared purpose and is not funded by any taxpayers. The BBC on the other hand is, and has a Charter that clearly sets out its requirement to be fair and impartial. It is neither, wrt Israeli matters.
BTW if the shit sticks, it has found its natural home!
Hmm, so we have reporting of facts and a quote from someone who is not in any way affiliated with the BBC. Do you notice the last line says “martyr in his community”, not “martyr in the eyes of the BBC”, or should they just not quote Palestinians?
No, they usually refer to them as militants, which is what one would expect from a news source who isn’t taking sides. They are definitely militants, no matter where you stand. The BBS also doesn’t refer to the IDF as terrorists, so I’d say they are balancing the sides quite well.
I keep forgetting that they are a “media watch group”, not a news source, so I’ll retract that. They do happen to be a “media watch group” that you take seriously and support. So, are they biased or not?
Unless you want to point out where the Jew-haters are, the shit won’t be travelling far to get home.