[QUOTE=jellyblue]
How about “underground bunker”?
[/QUOTE]
Nah, that conjures up an image of a shelter someone builds and enters willingly (like survivalists, or the average joe during the heights of the Cold War).
“Dungeon” is just fine.
Did anybody else click on the link and see the evidence photo on the left side and a picture of the kitchen in a Residence Inn Suites ad on the right side?
I wonder whose idea that was?
[QUOTE=Leaper]
Nah, that conjures up an image of a shelter someone builds and enters willingly (like survivalists, or the average joe during the heights of the Cold War).
“Dungeon” is just fine.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, “Dungeon” works for me, but I have to say I wouldn’t necessarily want to cozy up to anyone admitting to having an “underground bunker”, either ::shudder::
[QUOTE=jellyblue]
“Dungeon” works for me, though. There are simply no words for this story. I mean, wtf??!!! I’m a psychologist and I can’t even begin to fathom this one.
[/QUOTE]
I hate to admit that I am extremely curious about just what was going on in this guy’s head. Do you suppose it started as a temporary punishment thing, turned into molestation (which is awful, but not quite in the “holy shit, is this guy even fucking human?” territory yet, then a “well I guess I should hide the evidence” thing? I can’t believe that someone one day out of the blue just decides that he’s going to lock his daughter up, pretend she ran away to the circus or whatever, molest her and force her to have his children, and never let her out of the basement for the rest of her life.
There had to be some kind of gradual buildup to this complete insanity, right? He installed high tech passcode-protected doors to block the area off! I really doubt that he built the dungeon-thing first and moved the daughter in later.
Anyway, since this is the anonymous internet and all, I have to say that this guy totally fascinates me. I would really like to hear how he justifies all of this to himself.
According to reports he began abusing her at the age of 11. At 16 she tried twice to run away, and both times the police returned her to her father (good job there, guys). When she was nearly 18, IIRC, he imprisoned her. My theory is that once she reached the age of majority, she’d have left and never come back, so he locked her up before that could happen.
She said herself something like “My father chose me for himself”, which makes me shudder.
[QUOTE=Revtim]
Nicely put. I was thinking of how to explain that although the OP may have been technically incorrect, the point being made was clear and one I agree with: the word ‘dungeon’ brings up images of dank stone chambers which was clearly not the case.
The question I’m left with is whether the writers of the headlines knew they were being misleading, or if they assumed the denotative meaning was well-known.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s a no-win situation. If they’d called it an “underground flat” or something innocuous, someone else would have started a Pit thread saying “What ‘underground flat’? It was a dungeon! They couldn’t leave and there was no natural light! It was a freaking dungeon!” And the guy wasn’t arrested for building a flat for his daughter and grandchildren who were down on their luck. He was arrested for keeping them there, and for raping his daughter to produce those children. As others have pointed out, that makes “dungeon” the purpose of the flat, no matter how well appointed.
(Still basically agree with the OP, though. Assuming the apartment is up to code, it could be a rental. To people who can leave when they want.)
Media scare words, ah, how lovely.
Someone living in an unsanitary house? HOUSE OF HORRORS!
Boy Scouts lost in a cave? TRAPPED IN THE BOWELS OF THE EARTH! (ieww.)
Someone shot with a big gun? ASSAULT RIFLE!
Kids getting high on some random new thing they scraped off their shoe? AS POWERFUL AS LSD!
etc. etc.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! The comfy chair, the cushy pillow…
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
Media scare words, ah, how lovely.
Someone living in an unsanitary house? HOUSE OF HORRORS!
Boy Scouts lost in a cave? TRAPPED IN THE BOWELS OF THE EARTH! (ieww.)
Someone shot with a big gun? ASSAULT RIFLE!
Kids getting high on some random new thing they scraped off their shoe? AS POWERFUL AS LSD!
etc. etc.
[/QUOTE]
Don’t forget everything from Children’s NyQuil to Kahlúa being labeled a “date rape drug.”
[QUOTE=Mosier]
Anyway, since this is the anonymous internet and all, I have to say that this guy totally fascinates me. I would really like to hear how he justifies all of this to himself.
[/QUOTE]
I’m similarly fascinated. I’m particularly curious about whether he felt any guilt over what he was doing. He obviously knew it was wrong, because he took pains to keep his daughter and their children hidden. And yet he sought outside medical care for his daughter/granddaughter when she was badly ill, so he cared for her at some level. Did he know the abuse and imprisonment was wrong but feel no guilt over it? Did he feel wracked with guilt but compelled to continue?
The tragic irony is the decorators were scheduled to come in the following week and they would have cheered the basement up considerably.
Look at the scale of the things in that bathroom…the ceilings were 5.5" high. Look at the pics of the hallway http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1735500_1580978,00.html . Jesus. It made me claustrophobic just to tour my friends 38" RV, and there were open windows w/ air and light. Suprised nobody is blaming VC Andrews yet.
[QUOTE=The Weird One]
He obviously knew it was wrong, because he took pains to keep his daughter and their children hidden.
[/QUOTE]
That just means he knew others would think it was wrong, not that he thought it was.
[QUOTE=AskNott]
This one’s sort of a wash. The dungeon pix in the link are about what that cute-little-flat would have looked like in the days before indoor plumbing, electric lights, and Marlite paneling.
[/QUOTE]
Except the photos don’t provide an adequate sense of scale. Reports say the highest point in the ceiling was only 5’6" (average was lower) and the 18 year old boy now walks with a stoop because he has been able to stand up straight for years. So it’s hardly a “basement apartment”.
I think “bunker” is more accurate. It looks like something someone would have built as a temporary shelter when there were air raids. But "dungeon is plenty accurate too.
[QUOTE=The Weird One]
I’m similarly fascinated. I’m particularly curious about whether he felt any guilt over what he was doing. He obviously knew it was wrong, because he took pains to keep his daughter and their children hidden. And yet he sought outside medical care for his daughter/granddaughter when she was badly ill, so he cared for her at some level. Did he know the abuse and imprisonment was wrong but feel no guilt over it? Did he feel wracked with guilt but compelled to continue?
[/QUOTE]
His attorney is planning to argue he’s insane.
Now, I’m not a psychiatrist, but the level of detail he put into this “dungeon” and the fact he was able to keep it secret for 24 years should argue against him being mentally ill, no?
[QUOTE=Absolute]
Now, what he did was horrible, but have you seen pictures of this place?
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736947,00.html
[/QUOTE]
Huh. I never knew Ikea made rape rooms.
I was once in an oubliette at Saumur France.
ou·bli·ette–noun a secret dungeon with an opening only in the ceiling, as in certain old castles.
Even that had a window that let in the sun.
[QUOTE=ivylass]
His attorney is planning to argue he’s insane.
Now, I’m not a psychiatrist, but the level of detail he put into this “dungeon” and the fact he was able to keep it secret for 24 years should argue against him being mentally ill, no?
[/QUOTE]
Remember: Simply being mentally ill doesn’t translate, in US Law at least, to being incapable of being held accountable for one’s actions. I don’t know what the test in Austrian law might be, but in the US the test is whether the defendant was able to know whether what he was doing was wrong.
And the care and details of the bunker really make it clear, to me, that Fritzi was aware that what he was doing to his daughter would be viewed as wrong - whether he agrees with that standard, or not.
The really creepy part is that the area was so small, the kids would witness when he was doing their sister. I mean mother.
[QUOTE=ivylass]
His attorney is planning to argue he’s insane.
Now, I’m not a psychiatrist, but the level of detail he put into this “dungeon” and the fact he was able to keep it secret for 24 years should argue against him being mentally ill, no?
[/QUOTE]
Not talking specifically about this case but-- mentally ill does not mean stupid by a long shot.