It wasn’t a coup

The BBQ Pit
502

I think, in general, there are things that are so foreign to us that we don’t know what they look like and therefore fail to recognize them.

What if by some chance the insurrectionists had succeeded in delaying the certification? What if the Supreme Court had ruled, based on a strict straightforward reading of the Constitution, that since the Congress didn’t meet on Jan 6th to certify the votes, they would go to the Congress for states to vote by delegation? What if that resulted in a Trump win?

Would you call that a coup? I’m sure at least half the country would, and it wouldn’t involve any military.

If we ever have another Civil War, it’s not going to involve horses and muskets and cannons. It’ll look really different from the last one.

503

Tru dat. I was simply noting the fact that military and security forces, albeit not on active duty, were involved. Claiming that there was no significant involvement of any military is disingenuous at best.

504

Or, as what could have been the case, had it not been some luck and some brave and quick thinking on the parts of some of the security detail, what would have happened if Congress, under duress, certified Trump as the next president?

The Constitution doesn’t have any provision for that. Congress met, it had its vote, and it’s now a done deal. The fact that some members of congress were executed, and others had a gun to their head isn’t addressed in that ol’ piece of parchment.

Would SCOTUS uphold that act of congress, would the military follow the leader selected by it? I don’t really see why they wouldn’t given a clear reading of the relevant articles.

505

“You aren’t supposed to take him LITERALLY!!!”

I remember hearing that a lot.

506

This thread is part of a long tradition of American history; after acts of white terrorism, there is a rush to downplay the severity of the action. It’s often presented as level-headed paternalism from pompous twats. It’s why there are confederate statues all over the south, it’s why people had never heard of the Tulsa pogrom, it’s why Trump was elected.

507

Another one many forgot too:

https://www.history.com/news/wilmington-massacre-1898-coup

508

Dawggammit, where is that like button?

509

I guess I have a bit of dyslexia. I initially read this as ‘why the fuck are you feeding it assholes?’
Well, what else do you feed to a troll?

510

“Our long-term objectives are… to see installed a self-governing nationalist state which will be friendly to the US… We have an immediate interest in maintaining in power a friendly French Government, to assist in the furtherance of our aims in Europe. This immediate and vital interest has in consequence taken precedence over active steps looking toward the realization of our objectives in Indochina.” —Department of State, “Policy Statement on Indochina,”

And beforehand, it’s twats all the way up and down.

511

Or as another alternative, a bunch of democrats in the Capitol had been murdered, strung up, lynched, and a bunch more taken hostage? This could have also happened, given a few minor changes in timing and decision-making. This could have resulted in a days long negotiation process followed by an assault by law enforcement and or military on the Capitol.

I guess to the non-coup folks this would have been even more zany hijinks gone awry.

512

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary 📈 Trend Watch: Trump: 'It Is a Coup' - 10/2/2019 | Merriam-Webster

President Trump claimed he was a victim of a coup d’etat on Tuesday night, continuing his dramatic rhetoric that has drawn fierce pushback from legal scholars and Democrats since the House impeachment inquiry began last week. “As I learn more and more each day,” he wrote on Twitter, “I am coming to the conclusion that what is taking place is not an impeachment, it is a COUP, intended to take away the Power of the People, their VOTE, their Freedoms, their Second Amendment, Religion, Military, Border Wall, and their God-given rights as a Citizen of the United States of America!”
— Meagan Flynn, The Washington Post , 2 Oct. 2019

513

I’ve seen this elsewhere, but there was another that was successful – for three days. But the coup leaders effectively held power over part of the city well after that:

514

On Bolivia:

The “irregularities” were the US funded OAS lying about numbers, the protests were deadly violent attacks on indigenous Bolivians and burning down the houses of government politicians.

It was in the eyes of the perpetrators, which is what matters.

Coup in USA, yes I think.

515

I’m watching the CNN special “The Trump Insurrection” and it just astounds me how many people, including Republicans in the Capitol at the same, can be so willfully blind or be apologists for the perpetrators. It was a coup attempt.

516

Imagine if the (loyal) Capitol Police had been just a bit more confident that they could hold the building, and had not shifted, or not as quickly shifted, to moving Senators and Representatives to secure locations? It was very close – a single Capitol Police Officer, Eugene Goodman, probably made the difference for the Senate and Mike Pence.

I think that, at absolute minimum, you wind up with a hostage situation then. With everything hanging on what the insurrectionists perceive Trump’s orders to be. Some people would just be playing around, but there were some who were deadly serious, and were taking Trump at his word.

517

Somehow everyone here has seen republicans breaking norms, laws, and procedures for the last 4 years (they were before, but not at the same ridiculous pace) and getting away with it every time. And then they’re saying “well this coup couldn’t have worked because our norms and laws and procedures would save us!”

They’re just flat out in denial. They’ve seen the Republicans absolutely running roughshod over our systems, realize that a lot of what protects our legal norms is simply an agreement by both sides to abide by them and they fall apart when one side plays dirty. But despite seeing Republicans sink to new lows every fucking week, and get away with it every time, people STILL believe that somehow our norms will save us, and it can’t be a coup because it isn’t within our norms.

You are being willfully blind.

100+ republicans in the house were ALREADY massively violating our norms by refusing to certify a legal election with the hope of getting the losing candidate installed as president. That was already what was going on that day before the violent insurrection. And the rest of the republicans did not strongly repudiate them - they tried to stay out of it so they could see which way the wind blows, just like they did with supporting Trump 4 years ago.

So let’s say the insurrectionists find the congressman and kill a bunch and take the rest hostage. The vote certification doesn’t happen that day. You don’t think that a lot of those fence sitters who were trying to see which way the wind blow don’t jump onboard with the coup? The vast majority of these people couldn’t simply say “Joe Biden won the election”, they were trying to stay out of it, to play both sides, to see which way this was going to go. You get a violent takeover of the capitol, the Democratic leadership is dead or held hostage, we’re in a constitutional crisis, and it’s inconceivable that a bunch of them don’t jump on board with the coup attempt even though they’ve spent the last 4 years absolutely violating all of our laws, and norms, and procedures and getting away with it?

That sort of faith in the republican party runs completely contrary to what we’ve seen in the last 4 years. It’s not just wishful thinking, it’s being in complete denial. You people are a big part of why Trump and his enablers have been able to run roughshod over our government for the last 4 years. No matter what new low they stoop to, what norm, law, or procedure they violate, you’d rather believe that everything is normal, because you’re very uncomfortable with the reality that they are not, and so you’re in denial about what they’re doing and they get away with it yet again.

518

Absolutely right on! The only reason that laws or conventions work is that most people choose to obey or follow them.

The last four years have demonstrated that a large portion of the US population is prepared to disregard laws and conventions.

This was a coup attempt but we don’t know if it ended and was unsuccessful or if someone has the long view and sees Jan 6 as but one short battle or recce in a much longer coup effort.

519

He was only talked out of it because the deputy AG told a group of top DOJ officials, and they said they would resign en masse if he did it. The whole article is worth a read.

520

God, I’m so glad to be rid of that motherfucker.

521

I don’t think that they’re in denial. I think they’re just morons.