I took one semester of introductory Italian during college, and was told that an “i” between “g” and “a” or between “g” and “u” was not pronounced as a syllable, but only served to indicate that the “g” should be pronounce similarly to an English “j”, and not to an English “g” as in “gate”. And they also said that it works the same way in “cia-” or “cio-”.
But English speakers almost universally fully pronounce the ‘i’ as a syllable, including Italian descendants pronouncing their own names. This can get me into minor trouble some times, because I tend to be a language purist; if I’ve learned that native speakers pronounce things a certain way, then that way, and only that way, seems right to me. We have someone here at the office named Giovanni, and he signs his emails “Gio”. To me, that’s would be “Joe” because I studied Italian, but I do my best to respect the fact that, to him, it’s really “Jee-Oh”. (He’s not Italian, BTW).
So coming to the actual question, are there dialects of Italian where they do pronounce the “i” with full sylabic value, the way Americans trying to pronounce Italian do?
I took Italian for four years in high school and much of my family speaks a different dialect. The way I hear it, it’s not exactly either " Joe" or " Jee-oh". The “i” is pronounced, but sort of slurred into the “o”, and it’s not two separate syllables as in the “Jee-oh” version.
I once started a thread like this, maybe a year or two ago. You and I learned it the same way, pronouncing “gio” as “joe,” but in reality it’s slightly more like a diphthong. But definitely NOT the way most Americans pronounce it.
From my English perspective, I’d say it’s certainly true that American accents place more emphasis on individual vowel sounds than Italian accents do. However, ‘Joe’ isn’t quite right either. Italians certainly merge vowel sounds in a more fluid way, but they’re still there. So, for instance, ‘ciao’ is ‘almost’ but not ‘quite’ the same as our english word ‘chow’. There is a slight (miniscule?) lilt upwards to indicate the ‘i’.
So the answer is, it’s somewhere between your 2 examples (if slightly closer to ‘Joe’).
However, like every country in the world, Italy is subject to accent fluctuations across the country, so you might find that there’s some variation in stress between, say, Milanese and Puglianese.
This is just my opinion of course, but I have no problem with pronunciation adapting to different cultural environments. Accents fluctuate amongst native speakers as well as foreigners and I don’t see language as a static thing. It would be ‘correct’ for me to pronounce Paris as ‘Paree’, but then I’d just sound stupid and pretentious. Spoken within an English sentence, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to apply an English pronunciation to a foreign word. Most English words are foreign anyway!
Nava must be giving a Spanish pronunciation, where V and B can be interchangeable (e.g., Cubans saying “Habana” instead of “Havana”). Italians wouldn’t pronounce the initial G like a Y, either, to the best of my knowledge.
The italian v isn’t exactly a b, but it’s nowhere as different (in many cases) as the English ones are.
But the y yeah, I yust can’t write a J when it’s not a Spanish J and I’m being phonic. Can’t freaking pronounce the English J, apparently… I learned to say “prison” and not “jail” after one too many morons claimed to understand “Yale”.
(Oh, and blue sky dreamer, not to be impolite to the guests, but the place’s name IS La Habana, it’s you guys who placed a V in it that doesn’t exist in the original I wouldn’t criticise a Frenchman for saying Paree)
I wasn’t criticizing anyone at all; I’m surprised you should think so. Americans are simply used to hearing “Havana,” and a Cuban co-worker of mine used to refer to his hometown as such. His mother called it “Habana,” though, and his explanation to me was that the pronunciations were sort of interchangeable.
There is an interesting discussion of B vs V in Spanish as spoken by different folks in the Western Hemisphere here. Apparently, it’s a less clear-cut issue on this side of the Atlantic than it is back in Spain.
Wait – yes, you can learn to pronounce English “j”. As a native Spanish speaker, you can take advantage of what’s aready there in the Spanish phonetic inventory.
Spanish has essentially the same consonant as English “j”, spelled “ch” as in champu. The only difference is that Spanish “ch” is unvoiced, while English “j” is voiced.
From a Spanish point of view, English “j” sounds like ds, if you leave the “s” humming with voice like the “d” in front of it, and if you make a palatal shushing sound with it, sort of like Spanish “ch” but with the voice. Does that help?
I wouldn’t criticise a Frenchman for saying Paree)