It’s hard to find a less sympathetic character but his death changes little. There will be a little celebration, a little violence. None of the people he killed will spring back to life. The civil war will continue pretty much as it was.
Sarcasam.
It is a difficult concept.
Well difficult to effectively convey online 
It’s not that I feel as if I’m waiting for the other shoe. It’s the calculated, cold, premeditated taking of a life. Put yourself in Saddam’s place. (Not you, AuntiePam; ‘you’ as in ‘you who read this’.) Think of the second hand sweeping around the clock face. The minute hand moving inexorably to the point where someone comes into your cell and says, ‘It’s time.’ It’s creepy. If anyone deserved to hang, it was Saddam Hussein. If anyone deserved to be hung in the old way – no drop, but simply hoisted up by a dozen strong men – it was he. There is no doubt of his guilt. But even a guilty man doesn’t want to die. And to know the hour and the minute of one’s death is not something I would wish on anyone from any cause.
But the thing that I think of intellectually, is that (as has been said countless times) the execution doesn’t solve anything. A State that kills stoops to the tactics of its Enemies. As newcrasher said, ‘killing to prove killing is wrong, is wrong.’ Or as Ghandi put it, ‘An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.’
Killing in battle I can live with. A Very Bad Man being torn asunder by an angry mob of the people he has wronged I can live with. A State death machine is not something with which I am comfortable.
The confusing, drawn-out but not cathartic or truth-finding feel of the not legitimate-seeming court proceedings where the outcome was not in question, the safety of those allegedly on the side of justice was not protected, and the clarity of what nation was carrying out the trial – hmm, I’ve grammared myself into a desperate corner, but the point is that despite more than a year’s pantomime at justice, there are not many who believe what they’ve seen. And, at least in the American media, t least according to my understanding, there was a lack of clarity about the chain of custody and the legitimacy of the handover of the condemned. It didn’t help that to an American (mine in this case), it seemed like a sneakily undertaken act under cover of night, rather than a legitimate act of a state. I’m not horrified, but I am embarassed.
Tabby
Not quite. McVeigh was executed as punishment for murdering approximately 170 people, and secondarily, to illustrate that if you murder (i.e., illegally kill) someone, you will suffer the consequences. This “we kill people to prove killing is wrong” meme is a specious one. We execute people to prove that murder (i.e., the illegal taking of life) is wrong. It’s the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime, and as such it bespeaks the very sanctity of life itself. Lessen the punishment for taking someone’s life and you lessen the perception of the value of life itself. For example, how much do you think life would be valued by the average hothead or criminal if the punishment for taking it were a $20 ticket?
The death penalty is the ultimate punishment for the ulitmate crime, and as such I have no problem with it.
Unless you happen to be wrongly convicted of a capital crime.
And in the 21st century in the United States, you will certainly be in good company. Fortunately most of the world has moved beyond that kind of thinking. Gandhi moved beyond it almost a century ago.
I don’t want to derail this thread into a death penalty debate. Feel free to start a new thread if you like.
However, if you want to bring forth the ultimate penalty, you should kill the murderer’s family and children. For me personally, if you want to exact the ultimate penalty to me, harm the ones i care about.
Maybe “ultimate punishment” is no more than a jingoism…
Not an argument I’ve heard anyone make in re Saddam. Thousands of people died on his orders or with his connivance, and no one spoke for them. This may not be seem like justice to us, but it’s the only justice they’ll ever have.
That’s a different issue. I was speaking to the meme of how it’s wrong to kill people in order to show that it’s wrong to kill people.
I was also speaking to those who feel somehow lessened or saddened as human beings because a murderer is executed. My point was that in lessening the penalty for murder, you lessen the perception of the value of life itself. Naturally I believe that no stone should go unturned in determining actual guilt before an execution takes place.
Now, as an aside, how do you feel about the executions of McVeigh and Hussein? No question of guilt there.
It would be a sad commentary indeed if the value of life, or the perception of the value of life, was determined by the penalty brought down upon the head of him who takes it.
All life is innately sacred and of value. The death penalty neither increases or decreases this value. Life is not made more precious by taking life as a punishment. In fact, it is cheapened.
I also believe the value of an individual life is not based upon how that person conducts himself. A person cannot make his, or another’s, life more or less valuable.
So you and i are beginning from 2 very different premises, and are not likely to agree. But as I said, lets start a new thread if we need to continue.
I would think that common sense and logic would indicate that only the guilty party should be punished. Further, what you propose would cheapen the perception of the value of life also as it would hold that totally innocent parties should be killed in retribution for the acts of another. I can’t imagine that any rational, reasonable person would contend otherwise.
Now, given that you allege two posts above that you don’t want this to turn into a death penalty thread but follow it with another post in which you make the ridiculous argument above, I hope you won’t mind that I took the liberty of answering it.
True, but I’m sure the juries that wrongly convicted folks thought they were correct.
Therefore, I oppose the death penalty under any circumstances.
On the other hand, he was a mean son of a bitch, I’m pretty darn sure he done it, having him in prison would lead to violence, and he would remain a rallying point for the Bad Guys.
However, executing him will lead to violence, and his death will be a rallyinh point for the bad guys.
I find solace in the fact that it was done by his countrymen, despite encouragement from the USA.
And don’t forget the words of George Bush, “Besides, he tried to kill my Dad!”
Making my sarcasam clear: :rolleyes:
I suppose that what most offends me in the case of Saddam Hussein’s execution is this down-to-the-wire doing it before a major Muslim holiday, Eid’l Adha. “Oh yep, we gotta do it now…” Whose idea was this, really?
If it was the Iraqis who decided that best, I don’t understand why, if the Hadjj preparations were underway. It would seem that during Holy Days, you would lay off on this a bit. Was this a significant manouver within Arabic countries to show force, or was it a ham-handed effort to show force without respect to other’s holy days?
It seems very rushed and weird to me.
That’s about how I feel.
I don’t know, though. Had he been humbled? Did he feel remorse? I’m not sure he did. We can assume that Hitler, in his bunker, was the ultimate failure, but there were no cameras in there. The footage I’ve seen of Saddam* seemed to indicate someone who had not given up.
*and let’s not call him Hussein. We’re on good terms with Jordan.
IMO, better that than the fates suffered by so many on his orders. And his sons’ orders, or actions.
newcrasher, it’s amusing to me how you continue to request that this thread not be hijacked into a death penalty debate…but only after you make the points that you want to make first.
I will agree that we have different points of view on this subject and that neither of us is likely to change the other’s mind. I’ve said what I had to say in regard to this subject and I’m willing to let it drop, but only if you cease this practice of arguing your point while asking at the same time that I not argue mine.
That’s an excellent point, Jodi. I am generally against the death penalty, but I can’t drum up too much sympathy for a man who made so many people suffer.
I seldom speak on these topics, because I don’t feel I’m informed enough. I will say that one this subject - I am glad it is over with. Pro and con are still to be debated - and probably will still when I am dead and gone - but I am glad it wasn’t more drawn out.
What troubles me–well, one of the things that troubles me–is the ghoulish glee with which many of my fellow Americans will, to be blunt, celebrate the man’s death. I can understand not being particularly concerned for his welfare, sure, but the majority of Americans were never, as far as I can tell, directly harmed by him. In fact, we probably received some very attenuated benefits from his role in maintaining the balance of power with Iran.
You’ll see this same sort of bloodthirstiness from victims’ families during trials and around executions here in the States. It troubles me then as well–kill who you want, you’re not getting your loved one back and nothing, ultimately, gets any better–but I can at least understand the visceral desire for vengeance when a loved one was harmed. The personal connection seems to be missing, here, but I"m sure I could hunt around and find some people saying fairly outrageous things–wishing it involved torture, watching the video and expressing pleasure, and so on. I just don’t get it.
I guess I’m just broken somehow that I don’t get the glee when a life is taken. Even if the life happened to be one belonging to a “bad man,” as GWB would eloquently describe him.