So he does it once it’s fine? It’s only when he keeps doing it that it becomes harassment? 
Um, no.
The more I think about this, the more I think that the standard is like “rape” (to avoid the hyperbole police, I’m not saying that sexual harassment and rape are the same thing, but that the standard is similar). What I mean is that, if you say “no”, and the transgressor doesn’t stop, it is clearly harassment or rape. But you don’t have to say “no” for it to rise to the level of that transgression.
And this should be obvious; sometimes the power disparity between the people is such that the victim has no chance to say no. There may be intimidation or coercion that makes it near impossible to resist. So a victim doesn’t need to stand up to the perpetrator directly. Rather, (as Dangerosa eloquently stated), they should resist to the level that they are comfortable, and there is no shame in going to HR or a supervisor in lieu of directly confronting the behavior.
Now, I still stand by my earlier suggestion that it might be advisable to first tell the harasser that the behavior is not appropriate. But that’s because a direct rebuttal might immediately stop the behavior and be the quickest means to resolution. But, as I read the thread, it is certainly not necessary to do so. If somebody is acting inappropriately, you should be able to complain, and have no reason to have to justify your complaint.
Sexual harassment is subjective, and occurs when the object of the behavior feels harassed. That feeling is going to be triggered at different levels by different people (i.e. someone may just roll their eyes at the sexist joke in the breakroom. Another may feel afraid to go into the room to get coffee because of the comments they are going to hear). Given no objective standard, anybody who is harassed should feel empowered to report it without opprobrium. And management should always feel obligated to resolve it, no matter what level of conduct is being reported.
That’s right, except that it has to be looked at both objectively and subjectively; it’s not only subjective.
The individual person who is being harassed must feel that the conduct is unwelcome and hostile, but it’s also necessary that a reasonable person under the circumstances could feel similarly, to avoid the situation where I decide I’m being sexually harassed because one of the other employees here has big breasts, or whatever.
I think its a “reasonable woman” standard for most male on female sexual harassment.
A reasonable woman will not feel harassed if you say “would you like to go out with me sometime?” At work. Once or twice. Though if she has to wash her hair that night six weeks in a row, you might be harassing her.
A reasonable woman is more likely to feel harassed if you say “I love your red lipstick, it makes me imagine your mouth wrapped around my dick” as she walks into a meeting where she will be presenting to her colleagues.
Had. He’s dead. And I did tell him, but he knew I was a crazy feminist, and he ignored me. If any of the waitresses had had the guts to tell him he was making them uncomfortable, that would have been a hell of a lot more persuasive than I was. Of course, they were afraid of losing the tip. (Which was so small I usually discreetly added to it after he left the table, because standards have changed over the years, and he was really cheap.)
Another reason why I think ivylass should tell the guy if she’s not afraid to do so.
I think that depends on what he did. If he grabbed her ass without permission, once is too much. If he told her her dress looks sexy, once is probably okay, and it only rises to harassment if he keeps doing it after getting some indication it’s unwanted. What you describe is, in my opinion, a little over the line into “once is harassment”, but not so far that I expect every guy to automatically understand that.
I am having a hard time analogizing these comments to “that dress looks sexy.” They’re pretty outrageous.
[QUOTE=Ivylass]
She texted me today, saying a sales manager was making creepy comments to her about how if he were her boyfriend, he wouldn’t keep his hands off her, that yesterday, she looked like a girl and now she looks like a woman.
[/QUOTE]
I think those statements are worse than “that dress looks sexy” and not as bad as actually grabbing her. Sorry if I was unclear.
Honestly, if it were my daughter, I’d encourage her to send out her resume. Maybe I’m just a pessimist, but I doubt that the boss or HR will do any good.
What you mentioned? No, once is enough (though I think older women should tell the Harasser civilly and firm that it is not welcome, just to show the little sisters how it’s done).
A discrete request for a date? I think three times is the limit, assuming the first response was not, “No, I do not date co-workers.”
A command performance to eat cheap mass-produced cake with nasty frosting at least twice a week to celebrate every work anniversary, birthday, upcoming wedding or child or retirement? There is no limit.
My boss asked me if I wanted to have a menage a trois with him and his wife. Sometimes it is pretty outrageous.
“That dress looks sexy” is a comment that I wouldn’t want to hear from 90% of my coworkers over the years. 10% of them I have the sort of relationship where my response would be “thank you.” 10% of them that comment would get the “that isn’t appropriate at work, please don’t talk to me like that” (with one guy I’d have actually talked to HR, because that guy gave off the creepy vibe) The rest would get a tight lipped smile and ignored.
Update: Ivygirl was let go today due “downsizing.” She had called in sick on Monday and was concerned that would be a mark against her, but her co-workers assured her they hadn’t fired a salesperson who stole a car, so she was fine.
Cause, effect? Who knows.
Sadly it’s not a surprise she was let go.
As far as she could tell, she was the only one.
Retain legal counsel and unleash hell. This is so incredibly wrong.
This. It’s illegal for her to be fired over reporting the behavior. Get an attorney and get after them.
Case in point here in the UK:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/charlotte-proudman-women-sexist-misogyny
She has been particularly useful in “outing” people of less than progressive attitudes toward women on a professional board I am a member of.
And another article:
No, unwanted is unwanted. It’s harassment from the get-go, no matter what ivylass’s daughter says or does.
I agree with Dangerosa. I just had the mandatory sexual harassment training at work (and that’s three hours of my life that I’ll never get back, but that’s a different kettle of fish.) and the HR guy was very, very clear that whether you confront the harasser depends on time and place and comfort level. If some guy harasses me and I’m alone with him, I’m sure as shit not going to confront him; he may not take rejection well. OTOH, if we’re in a public place or in front of other people? I may well say something. Or I may just write it down and talk to the EEO rep. Whatever the situation seems to call for at the time.
She didn’t want to “cause trouble” when I suggested talking to a lawyer, but I told her they won’t know if she talked to one. I just want her to find out if she has a case. The first firm she contacted doesn’t handle this type of suit, but did say they would send her file over to another firm.