Ooh, the saucy hussies! Brazen minxes, the lot of 'em.
“That’s a honey of an ankle bracelet.”
“Oh! Did that slip down there again?”
Says who? And anyway, to a true gentleman – or lady – the other party’s attire and behaviour is irrelevant.
Why play favorites? Brand the women AND blind the men!
(It’s the only way to be sure.)
So a true lady doesn’t care whether anyone ogles her or not?
–Mal, doesn’t stare, doesn’t catcall, has no intention of walking around with eyes glued to the pavement to spare some exhibitionist teenager’s blushes either.
Let’s stop pretending that girls only get hit on when they wear revealing clothes. I get hit on just as much when I swing by the grocery store after the gym, hair tied in a knot, sweaty clothes. Or when I stop for coffee after riding my horse, and I have dirt under my nails and a vague manure scent to my person.
Guys are going to look, and occasionally they’re going to flirt. But lets stop blaming the young females for dressing up to it. When I was 16 I got flirted with all the time in my work uniform, khaki’s and a polo shirt. I was not “asking for it” in any way, nor was I “displaying the goods”. I was going out in public. If you want to look at me whatever, but don’t blame me for it.
I always hated the notion that young females need to be “told about the message they’re sending.” How demeaning. How confusing could that be for a young girl, trying to figure out what message you send with your tshirt and dirty jeans. Because a 16 year old in those clothes is getting stared at too.
My mom didn’t give me that talk, and I’m thankful for it. Instead she requested I travel with others at all times, warned me that the world had too many evil people in it and that I meant everything to her.
Oh, and she had me memorize the phrase, “I was in fear of my life”, as justification for anything I did in self defense. She taught me how to knee a guy in the crotch as hard as I could, and how to use a key to stab an attacker in any sensitive region I could reach. All of those things made much more sense then warning me that dressing provocatively invited attention that was my fault.
Your mom sounds like a sound woman. But did she really mean at all times? I’m female, and I hang out alone lots of times and don’t really consider that to be imprudent…is it?
When I was a young teenager particularly, I think my mom always wanted me in the company of others if I wasn’t at home. Now I’m mid twenties, and like you I spend lots of time just hanging out with me. I’ll hit coffee shops and restaurants alone, go to the movies by myself (never really understood needing someone with you to see a movie, you can’t talk anyway!). But if I’m going out at night, going downtown or to a bar, or even just going out for a walk after dark, I prefer to be with others (or my 150lb dog).
You could, but then we would be morally bound to check you all out by feel
…
wait…
…
What was the downside again?
My daughter, and the majority of her friends are all rather hot.* (NOT being creepy about that, just repeating what her guy friends have assured me of, while also declaring that they are protectors of her virtue and yes I buy that, because they’re all like brothers to her)*
I always had the blinders on as far as her friends went, they were all 12 years old, right? (She’s 23 -today in fact!) Then one beautiful summer morning a few years ago, I ambled downstairs in my gym shorts and sleeveless tee shirt, to make coffee. Now I had heard her come in sometime after 2 AM, but must have missed the part where she was with some friends who were staying the night.
Walk into the kitchen, glance right into the family room and see four, twenty-ish girls sleeping on the couch and floor. Not one of them wearing more than about a square foot of material. Skimpy midriff t-shirts, those little shorts that barely cover the butt and have words written on the back.
:eek:
:dubious:
Until I realized: Wait one of these is my own child, and the last time I saw her naked butt, it was likely covered in poo and I was probably changing a diaper.
And I couldn’t say for sure (since their heads and faces were covered by pillows… and by the way, why do girls sleep like that? ) which was mine.
I ran upstairs screaming, dove under the covers and told the Wife to go make her own damn coffee, and while she’s there, tell those girls to cover up.
I find that a really interesting perspective. I’m still thinking about it. (I really don’t mean to pass judgement one way or another; I honestly am considering it.) I grew up with the opposite perspective, and I still tend to assume that if I give off the right “message,” I can do whatever I like. I wouldn’t ever hit a downtown bar on a Friday night on my own, but that’s not really typical behaviour in the circles I travel in. I have no problem travelling on my own, or walking home or around downtown after dark (in the evening - I would never go out at 2 a.m. on my own, if that’s what you mean). I’ve always assumed that being a very average-looking, clean-cut, not-sexily-dressed woman has afforded me that privilege, in a way.
But I really don’t understand what women mean when they talk about being hit on in the grocery store or having pick-up lines be a part of their lives. Clearly I’m uglier than I think 
because that just doesn’t happen to me.
This has all given me food for thought, thanks.
That sounds fair to me as long as we also get what I’d like to see for men: some sort of non-removable identifier that his girlfriend can install on him so unsuspecting women he flirts with know he’s already taken. A charm that says “don’t waste your time” maybe.
I’d heard we already have that: the smell of fabric softener (the premise being that single men don’t use fabric softener, but when they get a woman and she does his laundry, *she *uses them. Of course, this doesn’t work for me, since I use dryer sheets my own self.)
However, my experience shows that being “taken” seems to make a guy more attractive to women.
Great point and definitely rings true for me. And, as others have mentioned, even burqas wouldn’t stop some ogling. I know they were (probably) joking, but it’s hardly out of the realm of possibility.
(From Reuters. I realize headscarves are mentioned and not burqas, but I doubt that we’re talking deep v-necks or booty shorts here.)
About twenty years ago, I was in the works minibus going down the slip road to the motorway. I glanced up, and just above the road, on a slope, were three schoolgirls in school uniform. They were laughing and giggling and looking at us, while sitting with their legs wide open. They were not wearing any underwear, and were clearly underage. What message were they sending?
It worried and disturbed me. This is an extreme example, but I use it to suggest that some girls knowingly send messages. Messages that are unwise and dangerous (for themselves). They needed to be told.
“We can get away with anything we want because the law doesn’t acknowledge that we either know or fully understand the implications of what we’re doing.”
True. But if I understand you correctly, my concern was not how the law would treat them, but how some weirdo would treat them. They needed to be told for their own good how the world works.
There’s nothing wrong about finding a late teenaged person of the opposite sex attractive. You are not a pedophile:
*"The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (F65.4) defines pedophilia as “a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age.”[1]
The APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its “Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia”:[22][23]
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger);
B. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty;
C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
The diagnosis is further specified by the sex of the children the person is attracted to, and if the impulses or acts are limited to incest. It is also sometimes split further into two categories: exclusive type (attracted only to children) and nonexclusive type.*
"Some level of sexual attraction to late adolescents is common among adults of all sexual orientations.[11] The term ephebophilia is used only to describe the preference for mid to late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction. In some cultures, such as those in which adolescent girls are routinely married to older men, it is considered normal for adults to include adolescents among their sexual interests"
Of course, it is often illegal to actually *have sex *with a 16yo (depending on facts and laws), but that doesn’t mean that desiring sex with a 16yo is wrong.
If I see a large stack of cash in the bank, I will have a desire to have it. No-one would think that that desire would be immoral. But of course it is illegal to *steal *the cash.
Now, if you see a prepubescent child and have strong sexual desires, then there could be a problem.
My point would be that girls who do that already understand how the world works. They know they can get away with anything because they know that they have the power to sic the law on someone.
I think boys and girls need to be taught that it’s inappropriate to flash other people.
I don’t think we should be telling girls “if you show off to much of your body, some man might be overcome with lust and attack you.” That’s complete BS. As so many of the men on this board have proven, you can look at a girl and not touch them.
The fear is that they will “send a message” and get raped/attacked or some such right? Isn’t that as demeaning to men, to say, “we think you are so out of control that you cannot even see a pretty girl without attacking her”, as it is to women to say “if you are raped/attacked, it is your fault for being attractive”?
There are people out there who will do terrible things to young girls (and boys, though young girls are kinda are focus here). But they do those things without being “provoked” by sexy clothes.
I guess what it comes down to, is I don’t believe that men are inherently dangerous. I think they are adults and can control themselves, even in the face of something instinctively attractive. And those who do terrible things are monsters, no matter what the victim was wearing at the time. They aren’t asking for anything more than you to look at them.