OK, I’ll admit it. I’m tired of people poo pooing every bit of music I like, simply by claiming that it’s derivative
i.e. Oh, Rammstein’s fine, but it’s just derivative of Ministry/KMFDM/Laibach
Listen, when we come right down to it, is not 95% of music DERIVATIVE of something else? Do artists not receive inspiration and ideas from other artists? And is that not how new and different music comes to be? Isn’t anything by Moby or Fatboy Slim essentially derivative of ROCKIT? Isn’t everything in rap derivative of Rapper’s Delight? Isn’t just about every pop song ever written derivative of the Beatles? Isn’t every metal band derivative of Black Sabbath or Zepplin?
I don’t know much about the creation of music, but I know for writing, that when I read good writing, or even bad, it inspires me to write something of my own. If I read something I like I say “gosh, that’s interesting, if I just change this or this…” So is all my writing derivative of John Irving, De Sade and Bogosian?
There is nothing new under the sun people.
I guess what I’m saying is, to me, derivative isn’t a scathing criticism. I mean, believe me, I know that the bands I like are not the greatest musical groundbreakers on the planet. But really, come up with another insult besides “your band got inspiration from another band and so they suck”
Nope…“Rapper’s Delight” by the Sugar Hill Gang came out in 1979. “The Message” by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five also preceded it…which is why Debbie Harry said “flash is fast flash is cool” in Rapture, which was released in December 1980.
I can take this peeve to another level (if I may) and add that it makes me spit nails when someone dismisses something I like by saying
“It’s so derivative …”
Of what?!?
Kindly tell me from what it is derived. If you cannot answer this simple question, then I must from this day forward consider everything that comes out of your mouth derivative of the huge, gaping, super extra economy value sized empty space between your ears.
Rapper’s Delight was the first financially succesful rap recording. I was buying rap records in my Bronx neighborhood long before Sugar Hill.
Ice Cube derived from Blondie? Actually I kinda like the idea.
Delphica, it is quite obvious that everything you like is derivative of the alphabet. Do I have to explain everything?
Sure, Superdude. And Pat Boone’s career crashed when that Little Richard guy stole all his songs.
“Rapture” was the first rap song to hit the mainstream Top 40. It wasn’t the first rap song by quite a long piece.
“Derivative” is one of those knee-jerk, nonsense pejoratives people use so people will think they’re cooler than those who like whatever they’re calling “derivative.” It’s right down there with “pretentious.”
delphica’s test for “derivative” works just as well for “pretentious.” Make them tell you what’s being pretended. If they can’t, grab a crotch and twist.
I realize I might get flammed for this but didn’t the late, great Cab Calloway claim to tbe the first rapper? He did a lot of things that have the same feel.
Besides which, it’s like saying one is not allowed to enjoy anything until one has studied/appreciated/exhausted all the works that came before it and influenced it.
Well, screw that. Life’s too short. I can like “No Doubt” without having written a dissertation on the roots of Ska, nor having ever given a blowjob to any of the members of Madness.
(I don’t like No Doubt, actually, but it was a handy example)
[quote]
delphica’s test for “derivative” works just as well for “pretentious.” Make them tell you what’s being pretended. If they can’t, grab a crotch and twist.[/quit]
I knew I liked you, Fiver.
Also, if someone says “You are only cool if you liked band x prior to date y. Otherwise, you are just a poseur”, you should kick them hard in the crotch and then explain that you were just striking a pose.
“Pretentious” has nothing to do with “pretending.” It’s the same sort of pseudo-clever posing that you claim to condemn, fiver
“Derivative” is a perfectly good critical term for someone whose work is merely a newly polished version of a much better artist’s work. Sometimes, of course, being derivative is a part of creating (and calling any heavy metal group derivative of Led Zeppelin is an abuse of the pejorative). But when, say, Donovan does “Catch the Wind” (derivative of Dylan), he’s merely imitating, not moving on (it’s notable that few people remember Donovan for that song, but more for the later songs like “Sunshine Superman,” where he forged a different and more original identity).
A derivative band may not suck, but they are, by definition, less talented than the group they are emulating. If they were talented, they’d create their own sound.
You burned me good, RealityChuck. Of course there’s no similarity at all between the meanings of “pretentious” and “to pretend.” You’ve shown me up for the self-important pedant I am.
Yep, there’s a self-important pedant in this thread, no doubt about it.
Well, who cares? I can enjoy the music of a talented and original singer and a talented and derivative singer equally. I don’t go through life comparing the relative talent of artists that I like, I just like what I like. And I certainly don’t try to argue friends into accepting that bands they like are inherently less talented than other bands by sneering and calling their music “derivative.” What, are we in 10th grade, in the bathroom at the Mighty Mighty Bosstones show?
I’ve heard it said that heavy metal owes its greatest debts to people Dick Dale and Link Wray.
And that’s fine. I agree that most music is built upon what came before it, and have always found that aspect one of the fun things comes with learning about music.
I think it’s so cool to trace the Beatles’ influences all the way back to people like Bill Monroe. Or the Beach Boys to the Four Freshmen.
Check out the PBS documentary “Rock & Roll”. It has lots of great stuff in this vein. But I agree that some people become pretentious about this kind of thing.
That’s the impression that I get!
RealityChuck, there are only so many notes in the world and so many instruments. Eventually, music is going to overlap or fold back on itself. I repeat my earlier statement. There’s nothing new under the sun. Industrial music by definition is restricted to a certain range of sound, a certain “feel” and if it ventures out, it’s not industrial anymore…so naturally, things are going to sound similar. And just because someone did it first, doesn’t diminish everything that came after.
See, I liked them before that song got all big and all you poseurs started liking them. I used to go see them at the Worcester Artist’s Group for $5 a show. The WAG was this cool artsy warehouse with graffiti everywhere, and they filmed one of their first videos for MTV at a show that I was at. At one point they asked us to give the cameras the finger and say “F… you, MTV!” It was so cool. The lead singer, Dickie Barrett, had a thing for one of my friends on the track team who would go to the shows with us. He started showing up at our track meets to watch her run, which was cool at the time but very creepy in retrospect. Often the band would let us get up on stage and dance around during their shows. Unless you have experienced the Bosstones as I have you are not cool enough to even watch their overplayed MTV video.
