It's Hall of Fame time again. Vote for your baseball favorites!

That’s actually a really good question, and it’s not all that clear.

Thomas was a really, really dominant offensive player - by way of comparison, he has been as good a hitter as Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, or Henry Aaron. In terms of offensive ability he in unquestionably one of the greatest hitters of all time, like in the top 20 or 30. He is vastly superior to Andre Dawson, creating more runs in a much shorter career, and having some seasons that are of historically great magnitude. Thomas was very obviously the best hitter in the American League through the early to mid 90s.

The drawbacks to Thomas are obvious:

  1. His career, so far at least, has been very short for a Hall of Famer; 1959 games. Most Hall of Famers are well above 2000. Andre Dawson played 2627 games.

  2. Thomas was, to put it very mildly, a bad defensive player. He always tried his best, but at his best he was still bad. He basically has zero defensive value, so he has to get in purely on hitting.

If I use Dawson as a benchmark for a guy who’s close but not quite there, the issue is whether Thomas’s big advantage in offense makes up for the defensive drawbacks. Thomas, as I mentioned, created more runs than Dawson (1700 to 1536 - I know RC isn’t a perfect stat but it’s good, and useful for this comparison) in a shorter career. In other words, Thomas would have to play about four full time seasons and go 0-for-4 years to be an equivalent hitter to Andre Dawson.

The issue, then, is how much Dawson’s glove was worth. A really, really, really good outfielder is worth maybe 15 runs a year above replacement value. Thomas was probably worse than replacement value, defensively. Given that Dawson was pretty darned good for most of his career, although he really slowed down in the mid 80s, I don’t think it’s at all unrealistic to think that the defensive difference is worth 150 runs. You also have to consider that Dawson provided much of his offense while playing center field, a fairly defense-heavy position, though it’s not like shortstop or catcher, so I’ll give him another 50 runs for that, which I think is a bit high but it adds up to 200 so that’s a nice round figure.

If we tack that on to the offensive contributions, that’s 1736 runs for Dawson, 1700 for Thomas. But Thomas still has played 600 fewer games; 36 runs ain’t a good tradeoff for 600 games. Thomas is still better.

I am inclined to say Thomas is above the line and Dawson isn’t because A) Thomas’s career, as I think I have illustrated, is generally more impressive, and B) Thomas has much higher peak value, and I think that has to count for something. Dawson played longer but he was never the ultra-dominant force Thomas was; Thomas WAS the White Sox offense. He was an astounding hitter, one of the best I’ve ever seen. You don’t even have to account much for context; Thomas was an incredibly dominant hitter before the home run explosion.

Just to throw in another fun stat, Thomas at present has accumulated 362 career Win Shares; Dawson had 340, but again in a much longer career. That strikes me as being a pretty accurate guesstimate as to their relative values.

That of course means I am advocating the one-dimensional player ahead of the multi-dimensional player, which I am sure if the first thing you’ll complain about. Meh, I’m okay with that; generally speaking multi-dimensional players ARE better, though. Most of the greatest players in baseball history could hit and play defense, like the much-mentioned Mike Schmidt, or Willie Mays, or Honus Wagner, or Babe Ruth who could pitch, etc. etc. I would not put Thomas in a class with those men; I think he’s a Hall of Famer, but if you ranked all the best players in baseball history I wouldn’t put him in the top fifty, and he might not make the top 100 (there’s over 200 players in the Hall of Fame, which I think is about the right number, although not all the current choices are the right ones.)

As a class I’d rather have guys who can hit and field. But some one-dimensional players are better than some multi-dimensional players; I am sure you will agree that Ted Williams was a better player than Jesse Barfield, or that Orlando Cepeda was a better player than Orlando Hudson has been so far. In this specific case, the one-dimensional guy, Thomas, is better, and I’d put him in the Hall of Fame.

In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a Frank Thomas fan. Though I’m a Cubs fan to the bone, the Big hurt was a guy I really enjoyed watching.

I agree almost completely with your analysis, and I do agree that both guys are close to the cut off. I haven’t decided if Thomas is a HOFer myself yet, and that logically dictaes that I have Thomas just a bit behind Dawson overall.

Here’s the aspects of your comparison I’d adjust:

Thomas was a bad defensive player. I don’t know if I’m in the minority on this or not, but I wouldn’t call him a zero value at 1B but instead a negative value. Using your assumption of Dawson being a 15 run/yr value in RF over 16 seasons (length of Dawsons career) he’s probably worth closer to 225 runs over replacement. If you want to be especially harsh and call Thomas a -5 on defense, it could jump to as high as a 300 run boost for Dawson compared to Thomas defensively without any adjustment for position. That puts Dawson’s run totals between a 100 and 200 higher than Thomas.

Also, when discussing length of career I think it cuts both ways. While it’s true that his offensive career marks were accumulated over a shorter period of time with a better rate, Dawson contributed to his team for a longer period of time. I tend to let the length of career arguments balance each other out. To translate, averaging 21 HRs/yr over 21 years is about equal in value to 28 HRs/yr over 16 years. Thats my general philosophy anyways, allowing for exceptions.

Lastly, while I agree that Thomas didn’t play in the steriod era and has never been remotely accused of using them (imagine if he had and they kept him healthy :eek: ). I think you can give Dawson a slight break in the head-to-head comparison becase Thomas did benefit from the general dilution of pitching in the 90s due to expansion and the advent of mini-ballparks.

Those three caveats put Dawson ahead of Thomas in my book, and into the Hall.

Gah! That should read “…(length of Thomas’s career)”

Well, I don’t think you can fairly state that Dawson was worth 15 runs every year for 16 years, for one thing. 15 runs really is a LOT of runs for an outfielder; that’s what Dawson might ahve done in his very best seasons.

As to the issue of negative value, I have some problems with the notion of ascribing negative value to players. In the specific case of Frank Thomas, it’s not like he made 25 errors a year, and after all he only played half his career in the field, so your -5 guess can only be applied to half his career. Even then, negative value concepts are pretty sketchy, because they result in absurd conclusions like “a .500 pitcher has no value” and stuff like that. I’m more inclined to look at it in pure terms of contribution.

Even then, if Dawson has a 300 run advantage in total, that still doesn’t make up for the offensive difference. 130 runs over 4 years isn’t even a replacement level player; that would make Andre Dawson essentially the same as Frank Thomas’s career plus Steve Jeltz. Not a ringing endorsement.

Logically you cannot have it both ways, though. Offensively, Dawson’s career length does not even bring him up to Frank Thomas. What I said is literally true; if Thomas were to play three or four years and not get a single hit, his career offensive accomplishments would still be greater than Andre Dawson. How can you possibly give credit to Dawson for a longer career, when the difference is basically seven hundred games of no hitting at all?

No matter how you slice it, offensively, Thomas had a better career **as a whole ** than Dawson, even counting career length. That is no shot at Andre Dawson; Thomas is a super-elite hitter.

But that just isn’t the case.

You can’t logically defend that. All contributions to the team’s success come in the context of opportunity cost. A player who hits 50 homers in one season has helped the team more than a player who hits 10 a year over 5 seasons, because the former player used only one season’s worth of at bats while the latter player used five. A team has a limited number of roster spots, games, and at bats it can use to score all the runs it needs to win.

This is an easy comparison in terms of Dawson vs. Thomas because the difference in offensive ability is so enormous that Dawson’s advantage in career length is basically null.

Look at it this way: Dawson had (by my count) 10,769 plate appearances. Thomas had 8,602. So Dawson had 2,167 more plate appearances.

Dawson had 638 more hits, but 877 fewer walks. So adding those numbers to the plate appearances, the difference between Dawson and Thomas is about four seasons’ worth of never getting on base. How can that possibly be an advantage for Dawson?

There’s also still the issue of peak value, which I think really does need to be considered. It cannot be denied that Thomas was a monster of frightening proportions.

The first five are valid comparisons for Blyleven.
Please tell me that putting Tom Seaver on your list was a mistake.
He is one of the great pitchers. Truly dominate.

I don’t agree with your contention that a starter is several times more valuable than a reliever. A top closer is more valuable than anything but a top ace. I contend Blyleven was not a top ace. These are both my opinions, but having seen the difference that Gossage and now Rivera means to a team, I really believe in the value of a top Closer. Rolly Fingers was a season changer. When a closer can be a top closer for 10+ years it is very rare and very impressive.

Jim

RickJay, I’m not making the argument that Dawson was a better hitter because he played longer, Thomas clearly is the better hitter. Thomas is one of the all-time great hitters. I am just saying that Dawson’s longevity offsets his shortcomings to a degree, and that he shouldn’t be punished for longevity.

I am however willing to argue that his defensive contributions do offset Thomas’ advantages.

But in point of fact, he was. He was Minnesota’s ace in the early 70s, and he was a terrific pitcher. His 1973 season was magnificent.

He was also the #1 starter on the 1979 Pirates, who incidentally won the World Series, though I grant it was not his best season personally.

The best argument for Bert Blyleven is Nolan Ryan. Who had a better record?

Blyleven: 287-250
Ryan: 324-292

So Ryan had 37 more wins, but 42 more losses. Is there really that much value in 37-42? Who had the better ERA?

Blyleven: 3.31, against an average of 3.90
Ryan: 3.19 against an average of 3.57

Blyleven was simply as good, or maybe even a better pitcher; I realize that’s not a popular opinion, but if you look at their careers side by side it’s hard to come to any other conclusion. Ryan pitched a little more, but not really much more; he didn’t have any more really good seasons than Blyleven did. He struck out more batters but also walked a lot more. The only argument you can make that Ryan was better, aside from pitching about 8% more innings, is merely that he got more famous, which I don’t find very convincing. If you actually look at Ryan’s career, it’s not any more impressive year to year. I would say the slight advantage to Ryan in IP is outweighed by Blyleven’s advantage in ERA.

Blyleven is also quite comparable to Steve Carlton, whose 3.22 ERA was against an average of 3.70. Carlton of course has a better W/L record than either Ryan or Blyleven, but that’s primarily because he pitched for good teams most of his career, his amazing 1972 aside. In this case I think Carlton is a little better, because he had more truly great seasons and led more teams to pennants, but not by a whole hell of a lot.

By comparison I think Don Sutton is clearly inferior to Blyleven, Ryan and Carlton.

The only reason Blyleven isn’t in the Hall of Fame is that he stopped at 287 wins, rather than going to 300. It’s a stupid reason to keep him out.

RickJay

Ryan is in for being the strikeout leader by a huge number. Right or wrong that is why he is in. Not his W-L record. Oh, also 7 no hitters.

**Blyleven ** has no Cy Youngs, never led in Wins or ERA. He lead in K’s once and only won 20 once. He is nothing special by any standard criteria. Jim Kaat had 3 20+ win seasons. I would put him in before Blyleven. Neither is a HOFer.

I am sorry, a very good pitcher, not a Hall of Famer.

Ryan & Carlton both benefit from National Acclaim. Blyleven like Dawson, never received said. Reality is they won’t get votes if they don’t punch the Tickets or put together several Award Campaigns. If anything Blyleven is weaker than Dawson.

Why Gossage: Scary, successful Closer for a long time and excellent media exposure. Is he really more deserving than **Blyleven **? No not really, but he has a better chance as he does have better media coverage and NY & Boston press (this includes ESPN) both pushing for him to get in. There is almost no closers in and writers are now ready to put a few in. Gossage might get in.
One day **Hoffman ** and then **Rivera ** will get in. **Fingers ** and **Ecks ** are currently the only Closers in.

Jim

You forgot Hoyt Wilhelm.

OK, I haven’t yet formed my personal opinion on this, so I’d like to hear your arguments.

Does Lee Smith belong in the HOF?

I tend to be of the opinion that closers are overrated and that the save is a garbage statistic, however I think the reality of the situation is that in this era of specialization closer will get their due in time.

Smith has the most saves all time and stats similar to Gossage’s. He was dominant in his time but hampered by not getting on the big stage and playing on crap teams.

Personally, I think if Gossage is in, Smith is in. But I haven’t made up my mind on Gossage and I’ll probably burst a blood vessel when Rivera comes due.

Doh! :smack:

Well Deserved too, from what I have heard but before my time.

Omniscient: Lee Smith is iffy, but once and if they let Goose in they may let Smith in. Goose was generally more feared and a little better known, but Smith was a top closer for a very long time. I would vote for him, but I am not sure he will get in.

If you want proof the Save stat is garbage remember that Franco is top 5 lifetime. He is far from HOFer material. Gossage’s save aren’t even the same as Rivera’s & Hoffman’s. Goose’s were much tougher.

Your Rivera line, I don’t think I understand it, you don’t think he is HOFer? Or did you mean something else?

Jim

As for the Rivera line, basically just implying that if ever a pure closer gets into the hall, it’s him. He’s a Yankee, I hate him, I think closers are monumentally over rated, but damn if Rivera isn’t great.

Cool, I had a feeling that what you meant. I have a friend ‘Z’ who is a Cubby fan and Yankee Hater. He feels the same way.

Jim

Nah.

Smith had some good years as a closer, but he still only pitched 1289 innings, which isn’t even close to Gossage and is like a quarter of Nolan Ryan’s career. Even if you were to give closers a 50% boost for innings pitched - which is generous - he’s not even close.

The truth is you’re right; saves are a garbage stat, and modern “closers” aren’t as valuable as the Gossages and Sutters were because they’re usually used in relatively low-risk situations - nobody on base, one inning, and frequently with 2 and 3 run leads. Lee Smith was a great pitcher when he was out there but he just didn’t pitch very much. By way of comparison, Smith pitched about as many innings as Roy Halladay has, and Halladay is only 28 years old and only stuck in the rotation for good in 2001.

A more interesting pick is Mariano Rivera, whose career has been VERY short, but his level of dominance has been astonishing. No pitcher in the history of baseball to pitch for a substantial amount of time has as dominant, inning for inning; in fact nobody I can find is even close. He is vastly more effective than Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Lefty Grove, Roger Clemens, anyone, and since his rookie year has never had an off season. Then you have his playoff performance, in which he’s pitched an entire season’s worth of games and innings and been even MORE dominant. Rivera’s career playoff line: 70 games, 8-1, 32 saves, 0.75 ERA, 85 strikeouts, 14 walks. Yowza. His playoff “Season” has actually been better than any of his regular seasons, which is especially amazing when you consider that in the playoffs you’re always pitching against really good teams.

So I can see the argument for him based on sheer peak value. Despite his age, he apparently still has some gas left in the tank; in 2005 he was almost criminally awesome.

I tend to be of the opinion that closers are overrated and that the save is a garbage statistic, however I think the reality of the situation is that in this era of specialization closer will get their due in time.

Smith has the most saves all time and stats similar to Gossage’s. He was dominant in his time but hampered by not getting on the big stage and playing on crap teams.

Personally, I think if Gossage is in, Smith is in. But I haven’t made up my mind on Gossage and I’ll probably burst a blood vessel when Rivera comes due.
[/QUOTE]

Playing Devil’s advocate, if closers do start getting in it’s tough to rationalize keeping the all-time saves leader out. It’s not as if his rate stats are poor, and his K/9 are great. Sorta the same arguement as Nolan Ryan and Pete Rose. I realize saves aren’t as popular of stats, but if you’re the all-time leader in a key stat category you probably have a good case.

You say their defense should not be compared in the same way, then neither should their offense. Dawson was a power hitter, of course he has more HR’s and RBI’s. To compare those numbers alone doens’t make sense. Do you want a guy who is going to hit a HR and strikeout a lot, or a guy who can more consistently get on base?

You’re comparing apples and oranges here, and it just won’t make sense.

Dude, I never compared Trammell and Dawson. Actually, I went out of my way to differentiate the two and with the ealiest mention of Trammell I said that Dawson was a better hitter and a better fielder (with the caveat that Trammell played SS). The whole point was that if anyone says Trammell deserves to be in, then Dawson is a lock relative to him.

Besides that, you’re right there’s no comparison. Dawson was much better.

My gut feeling is that Closers are not going to get in for their save total but for the collective memories of writers for how dominating or game ending they were.

This is going to favor only a few closers. I think Goose has a good chance as younger writers who grew up with Closers are voting in a larger percentage and it is one of the weakest HOFer classes with no shoe-in candidate.

Rivera is pretty much already in from the sound of sportswriters around the country and as Hoffman is almost always mentions with him, I think he will get in.
I wouldn’t bet on any other closer. Not even Percival. Somehow his name just doesn’t come up as much. I figure Rivera is good for another 60-70 saves which will leave him 2nd or 3rd on the lifetime list.

When he goes into the hall, people will look at the saves list and they might revisit Lee Smith.

Jim

So saying he’s a lock relative to Trammell isn’t comparing them? Hmmm. I guess I need to study up on my definition of comparing.

My original post was not in support of one or the other, but was intended to show that your comments were exaggerated based on your bias. I could say Trammell is the better hitter just by using batting average alone. A person with a higher average is obviously the better hitter. But that would be unfair. Dawson was the better power hitter, Trammell the better all around hitter.

You absolutely can’t compare thier defensive skills. Trammell was highly regarded for his defense at the toughest defensive position on the diamond. Dawson was great in the outfield, but how many times does the outfielder handle the ball compared with a shortstop?

Now that were being ridiculous, we obviously have to give Trammell the edge since he was World Series MVP in '84.

Additionally you cannot directly compare offensive stats of an OF to a middle IF.
2b & SS have always been prorated by the voters. Defense counts more for SS than any other position and allows for lower offensive stats.

Jim