Well… quite frankly… I would never invite anyone over that was not comfortable with my dogs. Don’t like dogs? Not the kind of person I’d have as a friend. shrug That’s just the way I feel about it.
Yes, I have secure, comfortable places for everyone, but my dogs LOVE people. They would feel like they were being punished if they were not allowed to greet visitors. They say hi and then normally go lay down, unless said visitor encourages interaction.
What you have to understand is that my dogs are my family. I have no one else. I have raised them as most people raise their children (and BTW I don’t like kids wiping sticky hands all over me asking ‘why? why? why?’ over and over either.) So… unless we have an understanding from the beginning that my dogs WILL be around, don’t be expecting an invite.
And Ivan… as to dicipline-if one of my dogs did this while on a walk, my first correction would be a hard pop on the leash-I always walk the big dogs in either a chain slip collar or even a prong collar- and a growled NO. This almost ALWAYS stops them dead. If, God help them, they persisted in their bad behavior, I would grab the offending dog by the loose skin at the jowls and alpha roll them to the ground, yelling KNOCK IT OFF. On the rare occasion I have had to resort to an alpha roll, I have made my dog pee themselves with submission.
I know this question was directed at PapSett, but with all due respect, my answer is a little different–pretty much exactly as I wrote above. This is only applicable to a dog that has at least some basic obedience already, and obviously should be modified to involve the commands and corrections your dog is already familiar with.
Dogs ramp up their behavior with eye contact. If the rottie is all amped up about something, the longer he stares at it, the more worked up he’s gonna get. The first thing to do is break eye contact with the distraction, and turn his attention on you. The instant you see your dog early-alerting to something, start practicing the basic obedience the dog already knows. Sit, heel, down, sit, heel, etc. Give your dog a very simple command that he is already familiar with (for example, “sit”), and make sure he hears it–you don’t have to shout, but do it in a clear, firm, authoritative voice. Give him two seconds to respond, then if, and this is important, if he ignores the command in favor of the distraction correct him into a sit at the end of the two second count. Timing is all-important–at that point you are not correcting him for growling, you’re correcting him for blowing off the command.
The first moment he turns his eyes to you at any point during the encounter, say “good!” and treat (or toy or pet and praise or whatever your dog’s highest-value currency is). You want him to understand that you, the handler, are always the most exciting thing in his world and that eyes on you in distracting situations are heavily rewarded.
If at this point you have your dog’s complete attention, then you can continue to work in a forward progression past the distraction, but do continue to work your dog past the distraction. Carrying a few high-currency rewards like food tidbits or a favorite toy is helpful. Reward the dog effusively for eyes on you and for prompt response to commands. You are teaching the dog that you are the leader in every situation and that what makes you happy is full attention on you.
If the dog is hell-bent on reacting to some oncoming distraction and no authority or bribe is more interesting than the distraction, then pretty much the best thing you can do is, again, heel command and about-face and move away from the distraction until you reach the limits of the “reaction zone”. If you want to keep doing distraction and obedience work, this is the area in which to practice–on the periphery of distractions, working on gaining and maintaining your dog’s attention under any circumstance.
If we are discussing a dog with very high reactivity levels and little or no prior obedience training, then my answer starts with a training collar, a fifteen-foot long line, and an open field
Again, with all due respect to PapSett, I strongly feel that correcting your dog heavily for growling at the moment of the growl is not the right response. Think of it this way: when you correct your dog for jumping up on a person, you aren’t correcting them for being happy and joyful, you are telling them “do not put your paws on a person, no matter how happy and joyful you feel”. When you correct for growling, you are trying to communicate “no, bad response, you are wrong to feel afraid or feel defensive in this situation” but the message the dog is receiving is “do not growl, no matter how afraid or protective you feel”. You are teaching the dog to hide his warning signs.
What you *want is not for the dog to “not growl” but for the dog to feel relaxed and confident and look to his pack leader in all situations. The way to achieve this is by practicing basic obedience and teaching your dog to be attentive, responsive, and compliant under even the strongest distractions. If in the course of this work you discover your dog has a marked fear of or strong aggressive response to hats or postmen, then some corrective socialization work is in order.
Please remember that this is fairly basic advice, and that though I am a dog handler, I am not your dog’s handler, I have not seen or handled your dog and if you have a real behavior issue you need to consult in-person with a qualified professional, etc. etc., so on and so forth, blah blah blah.
*I once knew a monster of a 175lb rottie mix who was sharp-shy reactive to people wearing hats, notably and particularly Hispanic people. It was later discovered that high school boys generally of the Mexican persuasion wearing hats were throwing stuff at him and teasing him over the fence on their way to and from school.
Naja… the reason I would feel justified in a harsh correction is because my dogs-the Gordon Setters- have been raised as show dogs. This means NO GROWLING OR AGGRESSIVE BREHAVIOR. Period. Ever. End of discussion. They have been raised and trained from the beginning that anyone can reach in their mouth to remove anything, be it a retrieved quail in the field or a piece of food in the ring. I am just the owner & trainer- I don’t do the actual competitions, I have handlers do that, and the dogs HAVE to accept strangers at any time. Can’t tell you how many times I have haved a dog off to someone they had never met for a show or hunt test.
So I understand my situation is a bit different than others. Rest assured, my dogs are NOT abused, and are most likely the happiest most well behaved most have ever met!
Oh, no no–I never, ever would have suggested that your dogs are abused or anything of the sort (and I lurves me some Gordons). It’s just that, were it me, I’d want to note the first moment of response to a situation that triggered any sort of inappropriate behavior, and work on circumventing that response through reminders that you are the leader, you are in control, and that if you are not fearful or aggressive, they should not be, either… i.e. if we are mutually concentrating on simple heeling patterns and basic obedience work, we aren’t growling at the panicking lady, and as a final lesson what we come out learning is that the panicking lady was no real threat at all. You demonstrate that you’re not worried and neither should be your dog, as you occupy them with a simple task which they can perform with a high success rate and ample rewards for demonstrating obedience under distraction. What they learn is all is well so long as they look to you and follow instructions. The trick is being able to catch the dog’s reaction at the first signs of anxiety or aggression, and not waiting until the dog has moved past alert/suspicion and into fear/defense mode.
You do not want to inadvertently teach your dog not to growl at the scary guy in the hat, because unless you address his concerns he will still be afraid of the scary guy in the hat, even if he learns that he’s punished for growling. Eventually, in the worst-case scenario, what you end up with is a dog that moves directly from alert to reaction, suppressing all major warning signs until he just can’t handle the fear or frustration any more, then he reacts, using his teeth. IMHO, the better thing to do is not to teach them to “not growl” at strangers, but to resolve the insecurity that’s driving the defensive reaction.
I am scared of big attack dogs. Puppies are fine, small dogs are fine, the big friendly dogs like St. Bernards or retrievers are fine, but the ones that are bred to be frightening, well, they work.
There was one who used to catapult out at warp speed from a house along my way to school when I was little, straining at his leash, snarling, and slavering for Fat Little Gay Kid Du Jour. What seemed like every damn day.
And my opinion wasn’t improved by the two unholy boxers that attacked and bit me while I was on crutches in 2006, either. Or the assholes who let their terrors out without a leash in my neighbourhood.
Hey, I was just thinking… Would watching a TV show like “The Dog Whisperer” be helpful for those who are afraid of dogs? I only know of the show because some friends of ours, non-pet owner’s strangely enough, think the show is really funny. But anyway, it is sort of fun to watch and you learn a lot about dog body language and dog/dog pack mentality. So you can learn how to predict a dog’s behavior, even a strange dog, by its body language.
When we had an obedience trainer come by to meet our dog, the very second the pooch saw her, he slunk under the table with a look of “That is the supreme uber-apha!” awe and submission of his doggy face. It was amazing. The woman said: “Don’t worry, that happens all the time.” It was amazing.
Oh, and in our household, my fiancee is the apparently the alpha. The dog always takes her lead over mine. :mad: Yeah, well… Someday she’ll heave to wear the Cone of Shame and I’ll be top dog!
Actually, my dogs DO have a way of ‘alerting’ on what they see as a threat. I have seen it on several occasions, and I heartily approve and praise them for it.
They will, quite simply, put themselves between me and whatever. Once it was Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking on the door, another time a jogger coming toward me on a walk, another time teenage boy roughhousing in the street in front of the house. They don’t bark or growl or lunge; they simply step in fromt of me, blocking me from moving forward and stiffen, staring at the threat.
I have NO DOUBT that if that threat would escalate, they would not hesitate to handle the situation, and they are praised for this behavior.
But lunging and barking at someone for no reason? Nope. They would be corrected swiftly, and my apologies to the person would be just as swift.
When I was little, I was afraid of dogs. My family got a tiny puppy (removed from the farm on which he was born and adopted by an irresponsible teenager at ONE MONTH old! He was five weeks when we got him), so I lost my fear of dogs his size and smaller (40 lbs or so). Bigger dogs still have the capacity to terrify me, especially if they’re running towards me. I would have been extremely frightened, too. That the owner didn’t apologize is absolutely ridiculous.
My shameful admission is that I have trouble sympathizing with people who are afraid of MY dog. I understand that fears can be irrational, but it’s still hard to grok. I bet people who are afraid of all dogs must hate people like me. “Oh, but MY DOG is different” sounds extremely dumb, but I can’t help but feel it.
She’s 3.7 lbs and close to fully grown. Even so, on the rare occasions she barks at someone walking by, I apologize profusely.
Of course! You were the mutant four-legged human! An abomination in the eyes of the universe and never meant to exist in this dimension. Clearly you must be eaten.
In the scenarios you describe, you are trusting your dog to judge human character based on their perception of a novel situation, and you approve of the dog’s character judgments. You describe your dog taking the alpha position and “protecting you” against non-threats. You approve of the dog’s threat display being circumventing alpha and positioning him (or her)self for readiness to act in situations where they perceive a potential threat to you. You are trusting in and approving of your dog making independent decisions about when you need protection.
In the other scenario where you assert correction is due, you are objecting to your dog escalating their defensive behavior after you have already taught them that you approve of their taking the alpha position in novel situations. Dogs are not capable of understanding the difference between “potentially threatening person at the door, okay to defend” and “potentially threatening person on the street, not okay to defend” where the only consistent factor is the dog’s perception of potential threat. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and roughhousing teenagers were not likely showing overt signs of pending attack. The panicking lady right next to the sidewalk* is*. From the dog’s POV, he was doing exactly what you had been praising him for.
Personally, I do not consider a Jehovah’s Witness a threat that my dog should address. He is trained to sit quietly at my side when I answer the door, very polite and mannerly, but definitely present. I also strongly do not approve of my dog making a unilateral decision to protect me in situations where I do not need protection. My dog is not the boss, I am. Part of why I chose his breed and him in particular is for personal protection, but it is absolutely and most certainly my ultimate responsibility to teach him what situations are and are not threatening, so that when and if the time comes when I do need his capabilities for protection, he is very clearly capable of identifying a real threat–and he is, has, and does, but this is only because I have taught him through extensive socialization that just about nothing in the world is truly a threat, necessitating his response.
I do not, personally, feel you are doing the right thing to accept your dogs’ judgment in some cases, then to very heavily correct them in others… without teaching them the difference. This approach only builds further insecurity. How is your dog to know that it’s okay to assume the role of alpha to protect you against a low-level threat, like an innocent stranger knocking on the door, but not to escalate his response in situations of perceived high-level threat, like a looming, adrenaline-pumping stranger staring you down on the sidewalk?
See… what I am trying to say (and evidently failing beautifully at) is not that I am rewarding their JUDGEMENT… but their way of expressing it. Had they responded to the jehovah’s Witnesses, jogger or teenagers by barking and growling, THAT would have been corrected too. I know my dogs well. What they were conveying to me was not “We’ll eat those people for you” but “That person looks suspicious, let’s keep an eye on them”. BIG difference in my book
…but, see, they don’t know that. Or rather, they do, but they’re not quite making the connection you’re drawing. You have given them license to circumvent your leadership in novel situations when they judge a low-level reaction is needed, when they’re just suspicious and keeping an eye on something that they deem threatening and when they feel it needs a low-level threat response.
You then present them with a novel scenario where they feel a high-level threat response is needed, and as per their prior training, they circumvent your leadership and make a unilateral decision to offer a high-level response, as their judgment tells them to do. By correcting them for responding as you’ve previously trained them to do, you’re instilling in them insecurity: “you said it’s okay to assume the role of boss and protect you if necessary, but now that I think it’s necessary, you’re punishing me for doing that.” The next time around, the dog remembers being heavily corrected and forcibly reminded of his low-level status in the pack… but… there’s all those other times when you petted and praised him for not waiting for you to tell him how to respond.
You haven’t changed the fact that he’s afraid of or suspicious of the person. You’ve only forcibly demonstrated to the dog that he’s not to use his “words” to express when he feels you and he are under serious threat, which sounds to me like the exact opposite thing you wanted him to learn. Developing a capable protection dog with a good, discerning sense of perception works pretty much the exact opposite way. You very extensively socialize, then train for and only ever accept threat response in truly threatening situations. Otherwise, what you’re doing is developing an insecure dog that doesn’t know when it’s supposed to protect and when it’ll get alpha-rolled for doing so.
I’m saying that if someone shows up to your house (a relative with a new girlfriend, for instance). And you’ve invited them. And it turns out they are uncomfortable around your dog(s). Do you force the person to put up with the anxiety or do you remove the animals from the room? This isn’t a far-fetched scenario. What do you do?
Kalhoun-
I have NO relatives. Zip, zero, nada. And any friends that might come by KNOW I have dogs. Period. I am not going to be made out as the bad guy here, so you might as well stop trying. My answer does NOT change.
If you can’t deal with my WELL BEHAVED, FRIENDLY dogs, they stay the hell out of my house.
And as to the discussion on training… Naja, I’m sure you’re a good trainer and mean well… but I am really tired of trying to explain myself. It works for me and my dogs. They are not neurotic or confused, and I am happy with their behavior. That’s all that matters to me.
I’m not arguing any more. Life is too damned short.
That’s fine if you’re the type that lets everyone know you have dogs and that they take precedence over humans. Not everyone is like that. I’m sure you’ve been places where no one told you ahead of time that there were dogs, cats, exotic reptiles, or whatever. No warning. It’s happened to me many, many times. Sometimes the animals are ok, sometimes not.
