No, it’s not. In fact, that’s why I chose the term “quasi-judicial” in my initial response to your post. The fact is you can’t properly compare the Pakistani forms of tribal justice with the US justice system. The AP article notes
The relatives of the upper caste girl went to an established tribal council that had enough legitimacy in the eyes of the villagers to order a punishment that was then carried out. There is no analagous US tribal system.
I thought it was fairly clear that Lisa Ann was commenting on the fact that the US does not have an analogous quasi-judicial tribal system that would order the gang rape of a woman for the “crimes” of her brother.
Nobody’s accusing you of being a “raving America hater” we’re simply pointing out that your analogy doesn’t hold.
Am I the only one who thinks the “tribal council” didn’t actually care about justice of any kind, but that they’re simply a group of fucking barbarians looking for new and exciting ways to get their jollies? Tribal honor indeed.
After being assulted by the hourly reports of petty to high violent crime in the US, I am surprized they didn’t blow Washington, D.C. up long time ago.
To quote the story:
Now in this story let us change a few words: ‘tribe’ to ‘gang’, ‘hut’ to ‘building’, ‘village’ to ‘city’.
Sounds like the 6 o’clock news in Detroit right? BTW if some say that “over there” tribes are not subject to law and ‘make up their own law’ seem to forget that inner city gangs sometimes are the ‘local’ power, who often impose their own ‘law’.
Their savages, their all savages! :rolleyes: Your a savage, and murderous asshole.
First: This was not a religous act, it was a tribal act. So blaming it on the “Muslims” is stupid. Second: “police their religion”? Why would you think that a religous police force would help anything? Third: If you had read the story in full you would have found that this act has very well been denounced:
In looking at my own country (Eritrea) I see a lot of injustise being carried out inside and outside the city limits (although crime is insanly low there, FGM and other tribal acts have been known to happen). I am so glad to live in Canada where I can get a job and a first class education. However, it really pisses me off when ignorant people could look down on us with ‘wholesale condemnation’ and would even brave to call us ‘savages’. Although, I try to cope with the thought that they are just “Stupid Americans”
I do not condone anybody calling Pakistanis savages or blaming Islam, but your attempt to replace ‘tribe’ with ‘gang’, ‘hut’ to ‘building’, and ‘village’ to ‘city’ fails. Similarly, the attempt to compare tribal justice with gangs is misplaced. The fact is that tribal justice is an accepted means of punishment in Pakistan. So-called “honor killings” are common in Pakistan and the government does little to stop them. Tribal councils operate as de facto government in many parts of Pakistan because of centuries of tradition.
Honor killings are committed at an alarming rate with a systemic wink and nudge by government authorities. If you can show me evidence that the US government allows victims of gang violence to decide whether to prosecute and then hands out lighter sentences if the killing is gang-related, then I’ll buy your analogy.
I understand your sensitivity to broad condemnations of Pakistan and Islam, but don’t go overboard in the opposite direction. The gang-rape of the girl in Pakistan happened because it is allowed to happen and centuries of tradition have given tribal councils de facto governmental powers. That is entirely different from the traditions of the US so you simply cannot substitute words and come up with a good analogy. Bad things happen in the US but gang-rapes with the approval of government does not.
You are correct in that crimes like this need to be condemned for anything to change, and that the Pakistani law and police indifference is clearly wrong, but I am not going ‘overboard in the opposite direction’.
Rape (gang or other wise) is very common in the US and sometimes the police are complicit.
Some US rape facts:
Every minute in the US, there are 1.3 forcible rapes of adult women. (Does not include males or non-adults such as children)
Up to 85% of rapes go unreported.
Of the cases of forcible rape reported in 1993, only 53% led to the arrest of the alleged perpetrator.
The average sentence for a rapist is 17 years in prison, but the actual time served is approximately 8 years. (cite)
Rape is hard to prosecute in the US sometimes even with DNA testing. In some states there is even a statute of limitation to rape.
Are you sure? With a quick search on the internet I came up to this story. In prison, a place where the American government is in complete control of the prisoners lives, not only rape happens but constant and brutal sexual assault. Here is a 378-page report by Human Rights Watch on prison rape.
You might have problems with my metaphore but it wasn’t that far off. Rape and official indifference is a problem not just for people ‘over there’.
I’m not talking out of my ass, but you people are appearantly listening through yours.
For the love of Pete. Violence happens in America. That is the total gist of my comment. I swear, I apologize for bringing it up in this thread, but I stand by the statement. If you’re going to tell me I’m wrong, you’re an idiot.
End of story.
I don’t even know where some of this shit comes from, or rather what the fuck it has to do with anything I said:
Great. Valid point. Doesn’t take away from my point one iota. Violence happens against women in America too. Granted not like in Pakistan (like I would even know save for what I’ve read in this thread), but it still happens. Again this was my point.
And this:
Came directly out of an anal orifice of some sort. I never compared Pakistani tribal justice with the US justice system. I compared an illegal action in one country with an illegal action in another country. I’m not defending either one. I’m stating a fact.
I feel like John Lennon defending my “bigger than Christ” comment.
Fuck people. One can critique one’s own country without condeming it.
Just thought I would add that a lot of these types of things have nothing to do with Islam or Honor crimes.
They are often tied to subjugation/domination of one tribe of another.
Not that this or any other reason excuse the action, just pointing out that the causes may not be those that are on the surface.
I’m officially sick of this. I already admitted that this wasn’t the greatest thread to throw out a controversial comment about violence against women in this country.
If the argument had been that my comments were misplaced and not an attempt to prove that my analogies and/or correlations were plain out wrong (by the way, I still stand by my correlations), I’d have shut up long ago.
I’ve got to call bullshit on this. You tried to defend the comparison between Pakistan quasi-governmental action and what happens in the US by saying:
Now the story’s changed and all you were saying is that violence happens in the US. Even if that was your point (and it doesn’t appear it was given your earlier defenses of your post) what’s the point of posting that in this thread? Did Lisa Ann ever say that there is no violence in the US? No. It was pretty clear to everybody else that she was commenting on the “official” nature of the sentence.
You can make a statement that you can’t defend, or you can play the victim. But you can’t do both in the same thread. I’m not challenging you because you are critiquing the US. I’m challenging you because your critique is fundamentally flawed. I’ve already explained that but you insist on using the martyr act.
Efrem,
The rape statistics are disturbing, of course. But nobody’s arguing there isn’t rape. Those statistics don’t support your “change village to city” argument. They merely show there is rape in the US – an undisputed fact.
The prison rape statistics still don’t support your gang = tribal council analogy. Please show me that the US citizens or government look to prisoners as legitimate governmental or judicial powers as the tribal councils are seen in Pakistan.
My point of posting in this thread is that I felt like it. Just like Lisa Ann did. Nobody asked me what I thought about the frequency of gang-rapes in America, but I don’t remember anybody asking her how happy she was to live where she lives either. You just liked her comment better. Tough shit.
You are twisting my argument all around. An argument I never even intended on having.
Pseudo-authority figures in this country have committed attrocities, whether you’d like to admit it or not. You are the one who made the leap to “US Judicial System”. Attrocious acts = violence. Why make this such a convoluted equation.
And you can take your’ “martyr act” bullshit and cram it with walnuts.
I made a statement, and I stand by it. Yes it was snide, yes it was aloof, yes it was even slightly controversial, but it isn’t worth the knot youlve apparently got your undies twisted into.
A statement about violence was made. I pointed that statement toward us. Ain’t no thing. There is nothing to argue about my statement unless you just want to call me an asshole for making it, in which case I don’t give a shit.
So keep flapping your gums. Set up a few more strawman arguments, keep knocking them down. Get your exercise. This entire ado is becoming laughable.
I didn’t present any arguments. I made a comment. The arguments were forced upon me. And frankly all these half-assed debating techniques are boring me to fucking tears.
Poor, poor Jack Batty. Such a victim. At least you’ve now retreated from arguing that your only argument was that there was violence in America. Tough to do when there are permanent words on a screen.
If you’re bored with the thread, why do you keep posting? All you had to do was acknowledge your comparison was bad. But no, you had to charge in and make half-ass defenses that didn’t make any sense. When people shredded your argument your ego kicked in and you had to start insulting people and telling them they’re too blind to see the Truth. Lovely.
That’s a nice little suit of righteous indignation you’ve got going too.
I haven’t retreated from shit. You’re making an argument out of semantics, and that’s weak.
I made a comment on our society. When asked I tried to explain it a little further. Granted I didn’t do a stellar job, but my comparison isn’t “wrong”. I myself tried to make a simple comment more complicated than it should have been. Then later I tried to summarize (like I was essentially trying to do to begin with). But after all is said and done, comparing one illegal act to another similar illegal act is valid. You’ve decided to declare it “fundamentally flawed”, but only after you attached conditions that I never even brought up.
Why do I keep posting? I don’t know. Probably the same reason you do. Ego? Maybe. The sake of argument? Possibly. I’ve got the time and I may as well speak up for myself? Could be.
And listen, this victim/martyr schtick of yours is tired. You are only trying to bait me and I ain’t biting. I’m sorry if you don’t like how I sling an insult when I feel like, but on the other hand that’s your problem not mine.
Well, Jack Batty, when nobody else in the thread seems to understand your posts, maybe the problem’s with you.
You’ve gone from arguing that a comparison between the gang rape in Pakistan is comparable to gang rapes in the US to saying that all you meant is that there’s violence in the US back to saying the two are comparable. I’m not twisting anything. Your words are in this thread for anybody to see. And those who have seen your words think you’re full of it.
And the “victim/martyr schtick” comes from your comments like:
and my favorite:
If that’s not a victim act in your book I’d hate to see what is.
Here’s the deal. You are now claiming … well, I don’t know what you’re claiming, and that’s the problem. Your arguments have been all over the map. You’ve argued that:
[ol]
*All you were commenting on is violence in the US,
You were comparing the US and Pakistan and the comparison’s valid,
*Everybody is stupid and you’re right
[/ol]
The problem is with you. I can’t control what you write. All I’ve done is try to understand you based on your exact words and the context in which they’re made. If I, and a bunch of other posters, can’t understand what you’re saying then the problem is with you.
Do I really need to beat it over you head before you will comprehend?
You claimed that my metaphor was misleading since “tribal justice (unlike gang justice in the US) is an accepted means of punishment in Pakistan”. However, tribal justice (like gang/mob justice) works outside the framework of the ‘law’. The only reason it is accepted (In Pakistan and the USA) is becuase of violence and fear for one’s own safety, in this case it was reported that villagers were threatend with death if they spoke out or went to the police (cite).
You also claimed that gang rape with American government aproval doesn’t happen, you were inncorect. Rape (and even sexual salvary) happends often in America and often the police are complict (see cites in past posts).
You are now saying:
Prisoners (or prison gangs) are seen as an authority of power (just like that tribe jury) by other prisoners. In prison, gang rape is very common. However, unlike in Pakistan (where the police have arrested all 8 members of the tribal jury and are hunting the 4 rapists down), the official authorities in the US dissmiss daily prison gang violence and brutal rape.
