A tribal government ordered the gang-rape of an 11-year-old boy’s sister, because the young man was seen walking with a young woman of a higher caste.
HUNDREDS of tribal members cheered as man after man raped this teenage girl.
If you had told me more than one person here would find a way to criticize the USA with those two above statements, and even make comparisons between things that happen here and the incident in northern Pakistan, I wouldn’t have believed it.
But I guess it just comes ingrained in some people. They’d find a way to criticize America in a thread swapping meatloaf recipes.
Am I the only one who understood exactly what Jack meant by his first comment?
He WASN’T criticizing America. He was criticizing the opinion that people assume that morally repugnant deeds cannot occur in America purely because its “America”.
Quit being so self-rightous Milossarian, I wouldn’t have believed that there also would be a hijack on ‘which is the better country the US or Canada’, but there was one. So, no one is engaging in ‘America critiquing’ just like no one is calling Pakistani’s ‘Savages’. :rolleyes:
Side note: Do you have a dispute for what has been writtin by anyone or are you just engaging in patriotic masturbation.
And this is exactly why people disagreed with you. You oversimplified the issue. While “A gang rape, is a gang rape, is a gang rape” is true in that it involves a number of people raping one person, it’s not comparable for the particular case the OP was discussing. You reduced the issue to “well, what’s the difference between a bunch of Pakistanis raping somebody and a bunch of Americans raping somebody” but that wasn’t what the OP was outraged about. The outrage was about the official nature of the gang rape sentence.
To ignore that difference is to entirely miss the point.
Nope. I understand what you’re saying. I simply don’t think the comparisons are appropriate. The issue is legitimacy to me. The horror expressed by the OP was due to the fact that a legitimate governmental power passed the sentence. You can argue that it’s not the “real” government, but it’s clear that tribal justice is widespread in Pakistan and accepted even at the national level.
This is precisely where your comparison doesn’t work. Tribal justice does not exist based on fear. It exists based on longstanding tradition. Prior to the introduction of the nation-state tribal justice was the accepted and legitimate form of government. The state of Pakistan is trying to undo this tradition, but has not been entirely successful in part because the notion of tribal justice is so well accepted.
More importantly, the system of tribal justice is a means of establishing a civil society of free individuals. What happens in prison is not an attempt to establish a civil society, it is a group of often violent criminals. Comparing a village of free people to group of violent convicts is fundamentally flawed. A villager in Pakistan looks to the tribal council to protect him and promote a harmonious society. A prisoner understands he is in a brutal place and authority among prisoners is based on violence and power. That’s not to say the guards shouldn’t do more about it, but you simply can’t compare a population of people bound by geography with a group of people bound by violent conduct. I’m certain I could find stories of horrible cruelty committed by Pakistani prisoners under the control of the central Pakistani government, but that’s irrelevant to this thread.
This article discusses the move by certain sardars to reform the tribal justice system. It indicates that the system has widespread support even at the national level.
[QUOTE]
The view that the jirga system serves the tribal community best is widespread among sardars. Sardar Khadim Jatoi told Amnesty International that both sides to a conflict have trust in the sardar as the most respected person and therefore do not lie before him. This makes it easier for the a sardar to settle a dispute than the regular judiciary where people lie and bribe police. Nawab Mohammad Aslam Raisani likewise emphasised: “The tribal justice system is what people are familiar with and trust. They know that we settle disputes fairly and in a short time. … I recently settled in a jirga lasting nine days a tribal conflict going back 96 years to British times, involving five deaths. The official system could not achieve such fair and speedy solutions.”
[/QUOTE
There is a clear qualitative difference between tribal justice and street or even prison gang rape. And I am speaking about this specific incident. I’ve never stated nor intended to imply that tribal council-approved gang rape is common. But you can’t compare street crime with what happened to this girl.
TwistofFate
I asked for a clarification of his original comment and he proceeded to screw the pooch. I never took it as a criticism of America. I asked him to clarify at which point he, in my opinion, made it perfectly clear that he was making an unsupportable comparison.
Simple, eloquent and to the point. I do not think any less of Anth because she lacks the bile and ignorance required to keep beating a dead horse.
Come on guys, it’s ok to say. “Perhaps I misunderstood your initial remark but since you have clarified your postion I am not mad any more”. Then again its hard to get those words out when your mouth is full of witty remarks.
If anyone wants to say bad nasty words to me cause I refuse to be indignant then I believe there is another pit thread dedicated for that very purpose still going on ad nauseum.
Which would be all and good except that no one “assumed” any such thing. People said they were glad they lived in America as opposed to Pakistan. We don’t have local governments here that order girls raped as punishment. Crime is crime. I’m sure they have crime in Pakistan and we have crime in America. But over there, in ADDITION to the crime, they have this semi-sanctioned bullshit to deal with.
As for the Canada thing, I really think that “second place” line was a throwaway joke.
I think there’s more than a little cognitive dissonance involved when a tribal council orchestrates the gang-rape of a teenaged girl to demonstrate how seriously they take “affronts to dignity.” This council is fucked in the head and they should be arrested, taken to the town square and publicly flogged, which is another ancient tradition they should be able to understand and appreciate.
Canada has fewer savages than Pakistan and a lower crime rate then the U.S.
We’re number one! We’re number one! We’re number one!
Of course once you start taking other factors into account, the rankings may change, but I’ll just enjoy the moment while it lasts.
A criterion I like to apply to a society is how much misery the citizens inflict on each other for stupid reasons. Cultures that hassle left-handed people, for example, piss me off.
So brutalizing a young woman in the name of an ephemeral quality like “honour” puts that culture on my shit-list. They can redeem themselves by prosecuting the bastards and taking steps to prevent recurrances, but my breath is not in a state of holding.
Let me respond since this is apparently addressed to me. My initial post asked for clarification of what Jack Batty meant. Then his explanations ran the gamut from correlating urban street gang to tribal justice to a general comment about violence in America back to a correlation. If he got frustrated that people kept questioning him it’s his fault. He’s in full control of what he posts. He can’t argue a correlation then complain that his posts are misinterpreted because all he was saying is there’s violence in the US. That’s not all he was arguing – at least some of the time.
I’m perfectly fine with Jack Batty because I don’t take message boards personally. But I think both his correlation and “gang rape is gang rape” arguments are flawed. Sorry I offended you by debating it.
Well there now, while I can appreciate how difficult it is for you to say “I’m sorry”, I must sincerely decline your expression of regret because it is clearly addressed to the wrong person. I am not offended by you. Up until this point I was, in fact, blissfully ignorant of your existance.
My comment was made to point out how it is possible for a person to graciously say that perhaps they had misunderstood, and have reconsidered their position. Anthrocite is a smart woman, perhaps you could take your cue from her.
Zoff, do you think you could just let it go? I think this subject has run its course.
I guess I understand what you are saying too, they were a ligitimate governmental power in the village, but they quickly became a tribal equvilent to a mob. This is exact the reason as to why Pakistan is trying to rid themselves of these tribal juries, tribe concil can be easly molded into a mob by a few powerful caste members.
However, a side note to my point was that this mob mentality can happen anywhere even in the US. Here is a quote from the father of the “real” victim
I conceed the point that in the village a tribal concil is like governmental power which is widespread in Pakistan. In any case this is a really sick event :(, I just hope the prepertaiors are punished.
We agree, Efrem. I think we might have argued at cross-purposes. I agree with your point that mob justice can happen in the US and is unexcusable. Really all I was saying is that I understand Lisa Ann’s comment based on the specifics of the case in the OP.
I know you are stupid, so it is hard to control these outbursts and that a ridiculous rant (fueled by a limitless stupidity and ego to boot) makes you really, really proud. However, we will need you to bring up a quote on this board where someone had claimed that you cannot criticize (to quote from your list):
It’s posts like these that make me wonder if you can possible use something other then lying or outlandish hyperbole to make a point. Your slug sized brain might not understand this, but your asinine comments, tedious hyperbole and idiotic demonizing can only serve to hurt your own standing in this board, your point, and those people who try to do it justice with logic.
I really don’t want to beat this horse either, but I want to try to make myself clear.
My initial comment stands, aloof as it may have been (I refer you to Twisty’s interpretation).
The correlation I was thinking of, I believe is valid, yet I don’t think this thread is the greatest place to really dig into it. And, truth be told, it only relates to my snideness tangentially.
I’ll try to give my general thought process:
In Pakistan there is an official government. There are also (apparently) Tribunals that unofficially govern certain territories.
A correlation (not an equation) might be made that in the States, there is an official government, and also groups which set themselves up as authorities over certain territories, i.e. gangs (mobs, mafia crews, prison thugs, whatever) rule their turf.
I grant you that gangs aren’t held in the same light in the States that Tribunals are held in Pakistan, but try walking down to Compton and explaining that to the Crips.
I actually think this whole abortion of a hijack could make an interesting GD thread, but I just don’t know if I have the stamina for it.
Wow. With no effort at all, I was embroiled in (started?) a controversial hijack and missed it. I was happily celebrating Independence Day with my family. I’m still thankful for and prefer being a citizen of the United States. And my SDMB citizenship is getting interesting!