It's Ramadan people, stop masturbating like motherfuckers

The BBQ Pit
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Ack!

[QUOTE=DocCathode]
The elderly, diabetics, pregnant women, children, and IIRC nursing mothers are all exempted from fasting.

[/QUOTE]

Quite. As are those who are undertaking long journeys, where fasting would be problematic, and
menstruating women. In these cases, whilst one is exempted from the “no food and drink between sunrise and sunset” obligation, one is expected to keep the moral/spiritual ‘fast’, and if one is able, to help those who are keeping the dietary fast by say, getting up in the morning to make breakfast for them, or to have a meal ready for them at the time the fast is broken.

On preview – jjimm, its entering the mouth that’s forbidden.

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[QUOTE=jjimm]
My colleague is fasting at the moment. He’s doing really well, but since he’s not allowed to drink even water, his breath stinks. This is a serious question: would swilling water or mouthwash be permitted, or is it “entering the mouth” that is the problem rather than swallowing?
[/QUOTE]

To my knowledge, this would indeed be considered breaking the fast. I know this because I knew a girl a few years ago who told me that she didn’t care what people said - she was going to brush her teeth during the day during Ramadan because her mouth became gross otherwise. She decided she didn’t think it was a sin - which suggests that most likely, clerics generally do consider it to be. She’s Turkish, though, which is not exactly a fundamentalist country - she might well have felt differently if she’d been from a more strictly Islamic society.

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[QUOTE=Angua]
Basically, the entire point of Ramadan isn’t deprivation, its a time for reflection and meditation; the fast just serves to remind you of the fact that there is more to the world than the material aspect.
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But why do you need to fast, remain thirsty, avoid sex, not masturbate etc, in order to be reminded that " there is more to the world than the material aspect". How does any of the deprivations help in realization of the latter? Why is it assumed an individual cannot perform the same reflection on a full stomach?

And would you please elaborate a little on what is that “more to the world” that you talk about?

Also, if hunger, thirst and avoidance of sexual pleasures in some strange way do help in spiritual enlightenment, why is the prohibition lifted altogether after sunset? How does sex avoided during the day but indulged in after sunset help in anything “spiritual” or whatever?

If spiritual upliftment was the purpose, then wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the prohibitions in place after sunset, albeit less on the scale of stringency, like allow consumption of only healthy foods that help survival etc.

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[QUOTE=wisernow]
But why do you need to fast, remain thirsty, avoid sex, not masturbate etc, in order to be reminded that " there is more to the world than the material aspect". How does any of the deprivations help in realization of the latter? Why is it assumed an individual cannot perform the same reflection on a full stomach?
[/quote]

Who knows? Why do most religions have some tradition of fasting? Honestly, asking this question about Islam and not about, say, Catholicism (though they’ve admittedly toned that down in the last couple decades), Judaism, or Hinduism reflects an awful degree of ignorance. If you want to know why fasting is such an integral part of many human traditions, you’re going to have to broaden your perspective; it stands to reason that probably all these different religions find the same value in it.

Well, the fast is broken at night. My suspicion is that this tradition arose to prevent people from dying of starvation or thirst.

I recommend you take it up with Muhammad.
Seriously, what possible value is there on grilling a single adherent to a major world religion and demanding to know why their religion isn’t totally different?

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IANAMuslim and I have no cite, but I seem to remember hearing that it’s permissible to scrape or wipe the teeth and/or tongue with a non-food, non-liquid implement in order to clean the mouth while fasting.

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[QUOTE=wisernow]
But why do you need to fast, remain thirsty, avoid sex, not masturbate etc, in order to be reminded that " there is more to the world than the material aspect". How does any of the deprivations help in realization of the latter? Why is it assumed an individual cannot perform the same reflection on a full stomach?
[/quote]

Because all of those things are aspects of the material world. If you are spending your time cooking, eating, and fucking, you’re too busy to properly reflect on spiritual matters. In addition, acts of self-deprivation can be seen as a form of sacrifice, as sign of one’s dedication to their deity. When done as part of a ritual, such as during Ramadan, it becomes a way of cementing bonds with others in your culture. Lastly, hunger affects the chemistry of the brain. Ever not eat for a day, and feel all light headed? If fasting is practiced over several days, and is coupled with prayer or meditation, it can lead to an altered state of consciousness, that many theists view as spiritual in nature: by abstaining from the rigors of the flesh, they have become closer to the divine.

All of the above, incidentally, applies to virtually all religions in one form or the other, and are not specific to Islam.

I’m hardly an expert on Islamic religious practices, but I believe that only the injunction against eating is lifted after sunset, so that observing Ramadan does not threaten the health of the worshipper.

Again, I may be wrong, but I think that is exactly the expectation on observant Muslims. They’re allowed sustenance after sundown, but the meals are expected to be simple and nourishing, not extravagant feasts.

Apologies if I’ve mistated any Muslim beliefs or practices in the last two paragraphs.

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[QUOTE=Angua]
My “something more important” was “finish the amendments to my astrophysics PhD”
[/QUOTE]

So you know your place in the universe but aren’t aware what kind of message board this is? I hope the committee lets you slide a bit.

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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
So you know your place in the universe but aren’t aware what kind of message board this is?
[/QUOTE]

What kind of message board is this?

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I don’t even need a crystal ball.

Someone is going to say that believing in a god is ignorant.

Religious people will argue with him.

He will stick to his guns.

The thread will eventually peter out into namecalling and nasty insults.

Nngh.

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Angua, DocCathode, thank you. It sounds much stricter than the “no meat on Fridays/Only three meals a day/no food one hour before Communion” type fasting from my Catholic school girl days.

:slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Miller]
What kind of message board is this?
[/QUOTE]

From my observations, I’ll wager it’s one where pretentiousness and reverence for the mystical don’t pass unsnarked.

Especially in the Pit.

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[QUOTE=buttonjockey308]
I wonder if dying from complications of asthma invalidates your fast?

On the upside, there are 77 reasons to just let that inhaler sit there…
[/QUOTE]

Well, the good news is, if you die from not using the inhaler, you get the 72 virgins. Bad news, they’re all into dommes who are into rough sex, breath control division.

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[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose]
You can masturbate as long as you don’t ejaculate, is how I’m reading it.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah but what about pre-cum? Wouldn’t that invalidate the fast as well?

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[QUOTE=Kimstu]
IANAMuslim and I have no cite, but I seem to remember hearing that it’s permissible to scrape or wipe the teeth and/or tongue with a non-food, non-liquid implement in order to clean the mouth while fasting.
[/QUOTE]

Sandpaper?

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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
So you know your place in the universe but aren’t aware what kind of message board this is? I hope the committee lets you slide a bit.
[/QUOTE]

Out of interesting, do you realise just how big a twat you sound here?

Person starts OP taking mickey out of particular instruction from religious leader - fine.

Person of that religion gives clarification on some of the background to this instruction - fine. Hell, quite informative for people who’ve any interest in different cultures and beliefs.

Personal attack on individual for having that belief, followed by extremely uncalled for pissant dig about their PHD - what the fuck’s that about?

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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
From my observations, I’ll wager it’s one where pretentiousness and reverence for the mystical don’t pass unsnarked.

Especially in the Pit.
[/QUOTE]

Oh go fuck yourself. Its the only action you get anyway.
You don’t know the first thing about me, or the beliefs of myself and my family. And yet, you consider yourself in a position to snark on about things you know sweet fuck all about. :rolleyes:

I said earlier, I don’t know why I bother sometimes. I know now. Its because if I can dispel even one myth about Islam for one person, I’ve brought a little less ignorance and a little more understanding into this world. More than I can say for some people around here.

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[QUOTE=Excalibre]
Why do most religions have some tradition of fasting?
[/QUOTE]
I expect it’s because if you fast long enough, you will hallucinate, and can convince yourself the hallucinations are visions of God/Buddha/Vishnu/Marduk or whatever.

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I expect it’s because if you fast long enough, you will hallucinate, and can convince yourself the hallucinations are visions of God/Buddha/Vishnu/Marduk or whatever.
[/QUOTE]

Fasting/physical denial is hardly something only practiced by religious types though, is it?

I imagine there’s quite a lot of benefit to be gained from spending a fixed period denying yourself normal comforts and vices.

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[QUOTE=Angua]
:rolleyes: See, I was giving you what is known in educated circles as “the benefit of the doubt”. I thought you were ridiculing the prohibitions because you didn’t really understand what Ramadan is all about (which you blatantly don’t anyway). So, I tried to explain to you why things like masturbating during this month were forbidden, and yet, you still decided that it was more amusing to take the piss, rather than, you know, engage in intelligent conversation. Go figure. I have more important and urgent things to worry about than what some rabid anti-religionist thinks, so have fun with your piss taking.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t care what Ramadan is about - although I already knew as I’m moderately well informed about religious stuff in a ‘know-thine-enemy’ sort of way. I’ve waded through the turgidly unreadable Koran and read around.

You see - I have to live with religious tanks on my lawn all time.

I have to sit by while the Catholic Church and its fellow-travelling membership condemn millions to death in Africa.

I have to sit by while my fellow human beings are told who they can have sex with and ehat form of relationships I can form.
I have to watch what I say, draw or as a writer, write when not under a cloak of anonymity lest some hag-ridden loon kills me.

It’s my free speech that is curbed by blasphemy laws.

It is the bodies of my friends that are subject to restrictions derived from collections of ancient myths or the alleged words of a war mongering bandit.

It is my health that is affected by the restrictions on knowledge imposed by someone’s idea of God.

And currently I also have to worry about what one irrational bastard or another does with WMD’s on the say so of their god.

I have to sit by while Bush and Blair follow their diety inspired consciences to spread fire, death and suffering through the middle east.

So - and this goes to anyone commenting further down in the thread to whom these sentiments are appropriate - if I want to take the piss out of this insanity in a thread religious types are under no compulsion to open, read or respond in - then compared to the enormous open sore on the face of humanity, compared to the endless offence and indignities that are inflicted on me every day by the impingement of religious fantasy into my life its not much to ask you just for once find some way to mind your own business.

And frankly - no I don’t care if this offends religious people. They offend me constantly with their inability to keep their fantasies out of my life, they offend me practically every time i open a history book and read about some murderous episode life the destruction of the Cathars, the Inquisition or a newspaper and find the Catholic Church getting excited about the concept of limbo while its attitudes to contraception continue to ravage Africa and I’m not exactly deafened with apologies for that.

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Hey, did I call it or what?