Without addressing individual posts, here’s a blanket statement in response to much of what’s being asserted:
The women in this family were not all raised in closed communities where men ruled with an iron fist, girls were traded and forced into marriage, or any of the other things we associate with the typical polygamist sects, so continuing to say that it is the case is simply not true and if it’s the only argument you have for why this family is wrong, bad, lying, sick…whatever…then you are mistaken in your assessment.
If you have actual information, rather than your personal assumptions, I’d like to see it. Otherwise, whatever your opinion is, you are entitled to it, but you have to recognize that it doesn’t come out of facts. it’s just how you feel and believe, and that’s perfectly alright. Just don’t try to say that your feelings and beliefs are the facts. That’s annoying.
And of course, as previously noted, Wife #4, Robyn, was divorced from a monogamous relationship that produced three kids, so trying to sell the idea that she had no choice because of brainwashing is particularly ludicrous.
Bottom Line: They all freely chose it as adults. Yes, they mostly grew up with it, but did so the same way their children are: hiding from the world at large while living as part of it, which means they were not closeted from the rest of the world at all. Their experience left them open to it as an option in a way someone not raised with it wouldn’t be, but it did not leave them believing they had no other choice, and that’s a big difference.
I’m not okay with the level of inequality promoted by the Catholic church, so no, I’m not okay with this level of inequality either.
I don’t understand how these people can be held up as an exemplar of a good plural marriage when they do not have the sexual freedom for the women that the OP thinks is necessary of a good plural marriage.
Stoid, out of curiosity, if it came out tomorrow that there was a ton of abuse in this situation, what would that do to your argument? The problem with identifying too closely with one exemplar is that if that relationship goes south, your argument does as well. Which makes me think you are defending these people despite some obvious inequalities because you think your theory goes to hell otherwise.
Again, as I have posted and cited many times before, this is incorrect. As has been pointed out to you several times, every wife in the family comes from a “mormon-cult-poly” background. Here what I said a couple pages ago-"No, actually all the Brown wives were raised in that repressive religious fanatic culture "From LA Times review: “…All three of the women were raised either in or surrounded by polygamist families " and as for the new wife” Robyn, … explains that although she grew up in a polygamist family… Apparently one of the wives- Janelle- was not part of a Poly family, but was raised in that cult and culture. Not every family in that cult is poly. "
The italics are the quotes for the outside sources. Yes, Robyn’s previous marriage was mono. So? That doesn’t mean she wasn’t raised in the FLDS or that background. She “*she grew up in a polygamist family”. * (wiki)
Read your own cite (abc) "The jealousy issue became more complicated when the number of wives expanded from three to four after Kody and Meri met Robyn through the family’s church." italics mine. That “family’s church” being the Apostolic United Brethren Church, part of the FLDS.
It’s nice that you believe in their self-serving statements. However, their statements are not nessesarily facts. Citing their statements is meaningless.
Janelle claims “However, I was not raised in the faith or even a member at the time”’ However: http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/print.aspx?postid=697951 Two of the wives, Meri and Christine, had been raised in polygamist families, while Janelle, though a Mormon, had not.
So, Janelle was indeed brought up in the faith, even tho she doesn’t appear to have been raised in a Poly family. Note that not all FLDS families are not Poly, it’s possible to be raised in that cult and not be Poly.
"*Religious law dictates that Janelle and Christine would not be able to see their children following their divorce, but a legal expert tells us that would not be the case at all under the law!
A new and somewhat darker side of the polygamous Brown family is beginning to show according to new reports that claim Kody Brown’s second and third wives, Janelle and Christine, want out of their marriage but would be forced to leave their children!
Star spoke to a source who said, “[Janelle] told me she and Christine are so sick of how Kody’s desire to be a TV star is pulling the family apart, plus all the attention he lavishes on his new, young wife, Robyn, that they’ve talked about divorce.”
According to the family’s religion, the Apostolic United Bethren, divorce would mean that Janelle and Christine could not take their children with them, or even see them until they were adults!
Janae Thorne-Bird left her polygamous marriage and says, “I was forced by our sect to give my ex-husband full custody of our 10 children and they were raised by … his other wives.”
In extreme cases the sect also believes in blood atonement according to Janae. “I know of husbands in the sect who said they would literally ‘find and gut’ their exes,” she claims."*
Yes, they have a “choice”- stay with the prig- or divorce. And then lose their kids (maybe) or maybe be tracked down and be “gutted” due to "blood atonement ". There’s a fucking knife being held to their throats, how can you accept everything they say at face value?
Poly can work. Poly *can *be good for the Kids. Being raised in a repressive religious fanatic culture is not good for either the wives or the kids- Poly or not Poly. It’s not the Poly lifestyle we’re attacking here, it’s the repressive religious fanatic culture. That’s what you’re defending- a repressive religious fanatic culture, one that keeps the women in chattel sex-slavery, practices incest and pedophilia, practices widespread welfare fraud, and “finds and guts’” those who leave.
First: I think a freely chosen plural marriage can be great. Whether this family is an example or not has nothing to do with my opinion about that, they just happen to be the example that led me to that conclusion, it isn’t dependent on them! How silly. (Read my OP… My opinion didn’t arise entirely because of this family, they were just the most recent and most compelling evidence for my opinion. I have felt this way to some degree for awhile, after seeing documentary footage of more restrictive communities - I thought how nice it must be for the kids, if not for all the crap that the adults are pulling, in forcing marriage, trashing boys, raping young girls, etc. The multi-mom thing is great.)
Second, I’m observing people arguing against plural marriage by arguing that this particular family is not a good example by making statements about this family for which I have seen no evidence. Whether I think plural marriage can rock or not, it bugs me to see people making statements that have no foundation as though it is fact. That always bugs me, I’m just bothering to deal with it because this is my thread.
AS for what you say here:
I will say again what I’ve said several times before in different ways in this thread regarding this topic: Equality and equity are different. Equality is sameness, equity is fairness. Fairness can be achieved without sameness.
You and others appear to be clinging to the idea that the only way that fairness can exist in this relationship is if multiple husbands are permitted.
I disagree, and I think it’s clear that they disagree, thought probably for different reasons. In any case, the wives have made the personal decision that they are in agreement with one husband having multiple wives. They have made this decision knowing that other options are available, one of them after having tried monogamy. They are not forcing it on their children. It works for them. In this I think they are no different than millions of other families modeling situations that in any number of ways are not exactly equal. It hardly means that they are doing a horrible job raising their children.
I think you’d be hard-pressed to find very many families that model the sort of equality you’re talking about. Even in 2010, it’s pretty unusual to see any family where all choices, behaviors, expectations, contributions, chores, etc. are exactly the same, so why make an issue of the fact that in polygamous families one of those areas of difference is the number of allowed spouses? If they are ok with it and they aren’t beating it into their children behind closed doors, who cares?
But you then go on to treat that fact as proof that they must therefore be brainwashed zombies being herded into marriages that they can’t see any alternative to.
If that were true, all women raised as Mormons would be brainwashed zombies who could be sucked into plural marriages at the will of any man who asked.
Since that’s plainly not the case, your point collapses.
No, that’s not my point. There’s Mormons (ie Members of the mainstream LDS Church) and mormons (members of various cult offshoots, linked to the FLDS). The actual real Mormons have nothing whatsoever to do with Polygamy, it’s illegal, a sin and grounds for being excommunicated. The FLDS (and it’s associated cults) do have all women raised in their cult/Church are brainwashed zombies who are ordered into plural marriages at the will of the cult leader or by Gawd. Not all women in that cult are in Poly marriages, it depends on what the Cult leader has decided, some men only deserve one wife at this time. A few women do escape the cult. None of them are on this show, none of them will have anything good to say about the cult or it’s repressive Poly practices.
The Browns are* not* Mormons, they are NOT members of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aka LDS. They were all brought up in the various Poly cults of the FLDS. If any of them were Mormons aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints , they’d have been excommunicated by now.
wiki "However, the size and prominence of the LDS Church have led to the terms Mormon and Mormonism being generally understood to apply only to the church and its members—that is, to the Latter-day Saints. The desire of the church to emphasize doctrinal teaching of Jesus Christ has led to its urging journalists to use the terms Latter-day Saint and Mormon only in reference to members of the church or as an adjective in such expressions as Mormon pioneers, while referring to the church as either The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the shortened form, the Church of Jesus Christ.[7] The Associated Press Stylebook states the following concerning the use of the term Mormon: “The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other Latter Day Saint churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith’s death.” Nevertheless, the term is often used to refer to adherents of Mormon fundamentalism[8] who believe in plural marriage (a practice that the LDS Church officially abandoned in 1890), "
There are 13 million Mormons in the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is why *they *are the Church we call “Mormons”. None practice Polygamy. It’s possible a few of the women are brainwashed zombies, I guess.
The various offshoot Poly cults have around 12 thousand, of which there are about 8000 woman, all of whom are “brainwashed Zombies”. **The Browns are not Mormons. **
For about the fifth or sixth time: Janelle was not brought up as FLDS, she was just regular garden variety LDS.
And now that I’ve watched episodes 6 and 7, I’m more sure than ever that these women are not being bossed around by their husband even a little. The guy is a giant, dumb child with four mommies.
Are they allowed to fuck other people if they want to? He is. You also do realize that reality television is fake, do you not? You are not seeing their genuine lives, you are seeing what they (and by “they,” I mean he) wants the audience to see. Even as calculated and scripted as the show is, though, you can see how miserable these women are, and the kids too. The only one who seems happy is the dude, who goes around with that unctious, shit-eating grin all the time.
So, they led you to the conclusion, which means you wouldn’t have gotten there, at least right now, without them.
Your weird attempts to say that equality mean sameness are… weird. I was my husband’s equal. We were not the same. We had the same rights within the marriage. That’s what equality is, having the same rights and responsibilities, no matter what sex you are. You do not seem to grasp this fundamental concept, so there’s no hope for a further discussion.
ETA: I think it’s pretty damned hilarious you “have decided” for others what is an excellent way to raise a family and you sneer at “sexual jealousy” inherent in monogamy, yet you shrilly berate those who have raised families and who point out the sexual jealousy inherent in your prized polygamous family. Perhaps at some point you will recognize that these women are monogamous. It’s only the man who isn’t. All of the baggage you ascribe to monogamy is there in that family, multiplied by as many women as are involved.
Yeah, there’s a huge disconnect here. My husband and I aren’t the same, either. I’m good at some things, he’s good at other things. I like to do some things, he likes to do other thins. Etc., etc. But there’s no RULE in our marriage that I am allowed do X thing, and he’s not allowed to, or I must do y thing and he’s not allowed to, or vice versa.
And…things being unequal doesn’t mean anyone’s being “bossed around” on a day to day basis. Within the structure of the family, it’s clear that mostly everyone does what they wants. (Except spend a night with their husband when it’s not their turn, of course.) What’s unequal about it is that he has rights and privileges that the 4 women don’t have. I don’t get how that’s not clear.
You said you didn’t want information that was not legal, and that can’t be shared with you even if you do want it. But if you Google it right, you can find what you want. Googling ain’t illegal.
Not mine, other people’s, the people who think the only way the wives can be “equal” to the husband is to have the identical (same) right that he has: the right to have additional spouses. Which they appear to think is the only way the relationship can be fair. I disagree, not least because I am not in a position to assess the value received vs. price paid, only the participants are, and they seem to be generally happy with it.
We can get very bogged down in definitions, as I’ve just shown you.
Many relationships are fair, just, and equitable without both parties having the SAME rights and responsibilities. They have what, for them, (and who else gets to judge?) are EQUAL rights and responsibilities. His responsibility may be to earn sufficient money to support the whole family. Her responsibility may be to see to it that the children are cared for, everyone is fed good meals, and the house is clean. The responsibilities are completely different, but they are equal and fair.
We don’t know what the tradeoffs are in this relationship. The only thing we do know is that the women are part of the world at large, at least one was not even raised with polygamous influence, and all four have chosen the relationship. There’s a lot of reassuring information there.
Sorry you see it that way.
In order for these statements to be worthwhile, you would have to have access to far more information than is available in published sources available to everyone else.
And if you don’t, you are assuming, spinning, supposing and just generally making things up.That’s ok, though, because this is IMHO, and you’re entitled to make things up, fantasize, imagine and suppose all you like.
And others have the right to recognize that you are sharing your suppositions and spin, and dismiss it.