Just popping in to point out that the big news this week (came out yesterday) is that this is actually Janelle’s second marriage-- the first was to Meri’s brother. So, we have Janelle claiming to have not been brought up around poly families, but she’s now married to a polygamist and prior to that, was married to a guy who was probably at least raised in that fashion (though we don’t know if he is practicing). I mean, if Meri was raised poly, then it’s not too much of a stretch that her brother was as well.
So, the plot thickens, as they say.
Granted, it’s Star Magazine, but I figure it’ll be easy enough for legit sources to shake out a marriage certificate if such a thing really exists.
But if you think that it’s bad for children to see their mothers treated as second class citizens, doesn’t that make polygamy inherently a bad family structure? Yes, in theory you can argue that a strong, independently minded woman can give up her rights as she wants. But can a kid really wrap their minds around it? Are they really going to see, “Strong woman doing what she wants” or “Dad can marry and have sex with lots of women, but Mom has to stay faithful to Dad, plus Mom cries about it and feels bad when Dad decides not to follow the rules set forth”? From what I’ve seen of that clip, when Kody kissed the fourth wife before engagement (or marriage?), the other wives were really horrified. If I were a kid, I think my impression would be that men can pretty much do whatever they like and if the women in their life are upset by it, oh well, tough break.
I think at this point in the conversation, I hope, that we can agree that polygamous marriage is not defined by fundycultycompound people, nor by Kody, Meri, Janelle, Christine and Robyn Brown.
So, to answer your question, yes, I absolutely do believe that polygamous marriage does not inherently lead to women being second class or inferior, it depends on the people involved.
Whether the Browns are giving that message or not is a different discussion.
Incorrect, polygyny, by definition, is inherently unequal to the women.
You need to pick a lane on the Browns, incidentally. Are they your exemplary family or aren’t they? Obviously they’re falling apart as an exemplar the more we find out how fucked up and grotesque they are, so now your trying to back to some hyothetical ideal which only exists in your imagination. Even the hypothetical ideal in your imagination would be shitty for the kids, though.
Pretty much, most of us here agree that Poly can work in some circumstances. Pretty much, everyone here but you agree that the Browns, aka Sister Wives are/is a very poor example of “polygamy is an excellent way to raise a family”. Your OP and your constant unending defence of the Browns has made into THIS discussion, and Poly in general the “different discussion”.
Once you stop defending the Browns, and agree that you were misled (and I admit, it was easy to do so, they put on a good show), we can go on to discuss Poly in general.
Stoid, you can’t keep saying how great and inspiring the Browns are but then act like it doesn’t matter what they do. You cite them as an example of a good, happy family when it’s convenient but when it’s not, you pull away and say that you’re talking about theories. So far you haven’t shown an example of how polygamy can work well.
“Keep”? Really? DrDeth “keeps” saying how awful they are, in spite of being shown to have zero facts to back his beliefs up, and that there’s plenty of information out there refuting his beliefs about them, Diogenese “keeps” saying the same 2-3 things, no matter what.
However, if you review, you will find that I do not “keep saying how great and inspiring the Browns are” You might find 2-3 posts relatively early in the thread that could stretched to fit that description.
Then you’ll find a lot of other posts in which I state that I think Kody is personally repulsive, the power dynamic IS skewed in that family…towards the women because Kody is a child, and they are navigating a variety of issues. I also agreed with Sarahfeena’s assessment of some of the unhealthy reactions and behaviors seen in the marriage dynamic. Where I part ways with most others is that I don’t blame polygamy itself, the issues in that family are where the issues in most families are: with the individuals themselves, not the structure of their relationship.
On the other hand, the kids in that family absolutely do present as smart, aware, happy, comfortable with rejecting polygamy in their own lives, and generally well-adjusted. There has been no evidence to the contrary presented or even suggested by anyone at all. (Predictions of likely future doom based on assessments of the parents doesn’t count; everything we’ve seen of the kids so far has been good.) Whether that’s because of or in spite of the parents, who knows, but it’s what we’ve seen so far.
Actually, even your own quotes show that that particular “fundie-mormon-poly-cult” is awful- just not as awful as others. The Chrurch leader requires the women to commit welfare fraud and then give the money to him, rather than spend it on their kids. They admittedly and openly practice Polygamy, a felony in Utah, which will result in the families being broken up in the case of an arrest- and an arrest is being contemplated even as we speak. Next, the AUC is a repressive religous cult, no one doubts that. Now, yes, they have recently distanced themselves from the FLDS- but only after that cult was hit by a massive raid (for child molestation, etc) and huge amounts of negative press. However, the AUC’s press release, while stating that their Church no longer supports the FLDS- still condemns law enforcement for making the raid. How dare nasty old Law Enforcement break up those “happy families”… of men forcing their 14yo daughters to be their sex-slaves. :rolleyes: So yeah, the AUC certainly isn’t as bad as the FLDS, but it hardly makes them a shining example of family values.
Even here, you continue to defend the Browns, the show, and even the AUC. I know it’s hard to admit you were wrong, but until you stop defending the scum, that’s all we’re going to talk about.
Stoid does not admit when she’s wrong. The closest you’re going to get is the “stretched to fit” pseudo-admission - but note, it’s your fault because you’re stretching her words.
She’s absolutely blind to anything that proves her wrong and will do verbal gymnastics (see the 14-year-old marrying a 50-year-old post) to soothe herself into thinking she’s been in the right all along.
Honestly, there’s just no use in talking to her, and I don’t know why anyone tries to do it anymore. I’d feel sorry for her blinkered state, but so much of it is willful ignorance that I can’t muster the energy.
No, come on. You stuck to it pretty tight until the last 2 episodes aired, when you decided Kody is a skeevy man-child.
Where did you agree with that? I guess when I said that the women conspire to gang up on Kody. Other than that, you insist that all the wives seem happy, that their reactions to their jealousy issues seem very normal to you, and that none of them indicated any displeasure about Robyn joining the family. But either way, it’s fine if you want to blame something other than polygamy on all that, but I’d be hard pressed to imagine ANY group of adults in a plural marriage, male, female, whatever, who would not have power struggles, alliances, jealousies, etc. It seems perfectly natural, and even in societies where polygamous marriages are the norm, it is common for there to be a hierarchy of status (such as, the 1st wife has the highest status), because that’s kind of how human interaction works. How that’s a recipe for a happy home, I do not know.
Sure, they seem that way, but they were speaking on camera for a total of probably less than 15 minutes over the whole series, plus a minute or two on Oprah, so it’s kind of hard to tell.
I think the reason everyone’s focused on the Browns here is because you spent an awful lot of time defending them, vs. explaining how you are envisioning a well-adjusted poly family. How would they avoid the pitfalls the Browns seem to have fallen into?
There’s boatloads of doubt about it, and no evidence to support it! Repeitition of your unsubstantiated beliefs doesn’t make it true. If it’s true, I’m sure there’s evidence. Show me and I’ll accept it. But all you’ve offered is your skepticism about what we DO have in the way of information.
I haven’t looked it up, but my recollection is that they distanced themselves from FLDS sixty years ago. I’ll have to go back and check.
“Scum”? Seriously? Are you living in the same dimension as I am?
If and when you manage to offer something other than your skepticism and suspicion and personal beliefs to prove that your opinion of the Browns and their church is “right”, I will readily concede that your assessment was correct.
But so far, the only one who has actually done any research and cited anything at all in support of their conclusions is me, and I went straight to your source for the information. Not to prove anything, because I don’t have anything to prove, *I don’t care what the truth ends up being only that the truth is what’s being discussed. ** Truth is my thing. So I went looking for the truth, and I started with your cite, because I had absolutely no idea what the truth was; I’ve never heard of their church until now.
And what I found was that their church is recognized as pretty benign, they follow all the laws except the law against bigamy, they disavow FLDS and everything associated with it, their members live in the larger community with everyone else, they don’t force marriage on anyone… etc.
The worst thing I found was the allegation regarding welfare. In one place, and unsubstantiated by any other source.
Why you imagine for a moment that your interpretations, skepticism and presumptions, which for the most part amount to “Well, maybe that’s what it looks like, that’s what they say, that’s the reports… but I just don’t believe it!” should be taken as gospel by me is nothing short of bizarre.
But I recognize that we are different sorts of people.
First of all, because I am myself guile-free and frank to a genuine fault at times, my starting position in every situation is to take things at face value. I’m a half century on this earth, and much battered by dishonesty in others, and still I can’t help but to begin each day, each new encounter, each new experience, by assuming that people are truthful. I never look for it dishonesty or expect it, which no doubt accounts for why I’ve been so battered by it.
But I’m not stupid and I’m not blind, so I am perfectly capable of discerning deceit, of recognizing when things don’t align in accordance with the story, when people are plainly something other than they claim.
In addition, I am an enormous fan of facts. Research. Evidence. Documentation. Data. Because even when you think you know something, whether it’s that you know that something is true, or you think you know that it’s false, all of us are wrong a good portion of the time. So the more information to be had, the more likely we are to arrive at someplace close to the truth.
All to say that you and I have a genuinely different view of the Browns. I am not rejecting evidence. I am not assuming that everything is a pile of lies. I don’t begin from the assumption that everyone is hiding something (for god’s sake, why the hell would they be on fucking TV?) I’m not avoiding any kind of information. I’m looking at everything that is available and weighing it.
And in the end, the weight of the outside evidence regarding them personally and the church they belong to, combined with my direct observation of the edited footage of the Browns in every episode of their show and in several interviews leads me to the conclusion that for the most part, they are being truthful about how they practice their religion and how they conduct their lives. It also leads me to the conclusion that their children are in good shape, Kody is a ridiculous man that I wouldn’t want to spend five minutes with, and his wives are grappling with a lot of conflicting emotions about their lives. None of them are saintly examples of perfection, but “scum” isn’t anywhere in the same universe of who these people are.
Period.
And unless something genuinely new is presented, that’s all I have to say. That you have a different opinion is well established and acknowledged, but since your response to any kind of citation to sources is essentially dismissed as unworthy of belief, continuing to go back and forth about it is unnecessary and unproductive, so I’m not going to.
Now, if you or anyone else would like to talk about our views and opinions and beliefs and values in regard to polygamy and family structure, cool.
If not, that’s cool too.
That’s how I ended up at the SDMB and why I stayed - I believe in the overriding principle on which it was founded, very passionately, and I conduct myself in accordance with that passion every single day in every way, it is the guiding light of my life. So while I freely confess that I’m very fond of being right, I never claim to be at the expense of truth, and I never avoid learning what the truth may be so I can continue to feel right… because I would be perfectly aware that I wasn’t right, just insecure and stubborn, and there’s nothing about that which is interesting to me, since it’s a lie. And lies are anathema to me, no matter who tells them, but especially if it is me.
Okay, so if the Browns aren’t the greatest because Kody is creepy and there’s a lot of unhappiness and drama, and if “Big Love” is pure fiction, what precisely is this “decision” about polygamy being “an excellent way to raise a family” based on?
What I find oddest is probably the “decision” itself, of course, since you know nothing about raising a family, have no experience with polygamy or raising a family, and have
no intention of raising a family or being a polygamist. It’s like me making the decision that the best way to hunt sharks is with a crazy straw and a pouch of Half and Half.
Of courseI I do, Elysian, all the time. It’s only by being willing to be wrong that one can hope to be right next time.
I just don’t define truth, reality, and fact by the number of people who agree, ever. It is meaningless to me, I was taught that at a very early age by my parents and its’ one of the things I am most grateful to them for. They taught me to seek out as much information as I could lay my hands on and they taught me how to reason, instilling in me the confidence to trust my senses and my intelligence to arrive at the truth, no matter what the crowd is yelling all around me. (You know the story of the emperor and his non-existent clothes, of course. I loved that story as a kid, because I knew I would be right there with that boy telling everyone else the emperor was starkers.)
A hundred people ignoring the facts, skirting the issues, and insisting that 2+2 is 7 will never convince me of anything except that they are victims of the phenomena I cite below.
But on the other hand, all it takes is one single person presenting solid facts and/or a clear and well-reasoned argument, and I fall right into line behind them.
Jeez, how many times do I have to say it: whatever the Browns are or aren’t, it’s not as a result of polygamy!
AND… all of the issues that the Browns seem to have or have been accused of having come back to the sexual jealousy issue, as I said at the outset - meaning that their problems seem to be centered around their adult sexual relationships with each other. When it comes to being parents, they all seem very happy with polygamy for that purpose, as do their children.
And that is pretty much what I said to begin with. If the adults can roll with it (whether the Browns are successfully doing so or not is obviously a matter of debate) it supports raising children very effectively. Especially raising lots of children. Better to have 10 kids with 3 moms and dad working together than 5 kids with one mom and dad.
I don’t lack knowledge of raising a family, I lack personal experience. As I pointed out earlier, merely giving birth and avoiding killing your kids doesn’t mean you have any idea what you’re doing, everyone has to learn how to be a parent, and we all get that education, whether we use it or not, expand on it or not: we get it from being kids ourselves and learning from our parents, and it’s that which people bring to the table when they go on to become parents: the knowledge and experience they have absorbed from being the child.
We all have that.
Then we add to that information any number of ways, it’s not necessary to actually be a parent to have a reasonably solid idea of what being a parent entails. At least, not for me… hence my decision not to go there.
But, again, what are you basing that on? Guesswork? Supposition? Magic 8-Ball? The Bible? Because you don’t seem to be basing it on anything verifiable.
Do you often make grand pronouncements about your decisions about the best way to do X when you’ve never done X, will never do X, have no evidence for the best way to do X, and are having to base your decision on fictional characters?
ETA: Saying you don’t lack “knowledge” but you lack “experience” is like saying you don’t lack oxygen, you just lack air. Experience is knowledge. If you lack experience, you lack at least one sort of knowledge.
And, based on this thread, a few other sorts, too.
