I've decided polygamy is an excellent way to raise a family

[DrDeth]

@Stoid

I haven’t looked it up, but my recollection is that they distanced themselves from FLDS sixty years ago. I’ll have to go back and check.

If and when you manage to offer something other than your skepticism and suspicion and personal beliefs to prove that your opinion of the Browns and their church is “right”, I will readily concede that your assessment was correct.

But so far, the only one who has actually done any research and cited anything at all in support of their conclusions is me, and I went straight to your source for the information.
And what I found was that their church is recognized as pretty benign, they follow all the laws except the law against bigamy, they disavow FLDS and everything associated with it, their members live in the larger community with everyone else, they don’t force marriage on anyone… etc.

The worst thing I found was the allegation regarding welfare. In one place, and unsubstantiated by any other source.

No, they were associated until recently, they split off as far as the Leader around 60 years ago.
Something would be the cite I provided and the quote you selected. And the other cites I selected earlier from Wiki, etc.

You did no research at all, you just went to my cite.

They don;t follow the welfare laws. They do not “live in the larger community with everyone else” they live in small rural communities with their own people. True, they don’t live in a walled compound. Their Leader does make decisions for the cult, including marriage, he admits it.

[Stoid]

@jsgoddess

But, again, what are you basing that on? Guesswork? Supposition? Magic 8-Ball? The Bible? Because you don’t seem to be basing it on anything verifiable.

Wow, suddenly you’re all with the verifiable? And you’re not holding DrDeth to this standard because…?

I didn’t state “The kids are factually and irrefutably excellent and no one who disagrees with me knows what they’re talking about!”

I said they seem to be doing very well, both in the show, in interviews, and from the limited amount of information available. No one has suggested they aren’t, no one has pointed out some dreadful behavior or moments when their misery has broken through. Since there is a fair amount of energy being devoted to finding things wrong with the Browns, both here and around the net, I would think that the slam dunk proof of how awful they must be would be to demonstrate what a mess their children are, and I’m certain people have tried, they’ve looked. That in all this noise nothing substantial has surfaced tells me it’s probably not there to be found, and the kids are probably doing as well as they seem to be, or not too far off.

I weighed the evidence, and logically the answer was the preceding.

Do you often make grand pronouncements about your decisions about the best way to do X when you’ve never done X, will never do X, have no evidence for the best way to do X, and are having to base your decision on fictional characters?

I didin’t make a grand pronouncement…I started a thread stating my opinion in a few simple, un-grandiose sentences.

ETA: Saying you don’t lack “knowledge” but you lack “experience” is like saying you don’t lack oxygen, you just lack air. Experience is knowledge.

I’ll have to part company with your understanding.

Experience is not knowledge, it is one of multiple paths to acquiring knowledge. Saying that experience is knowledge itself is like saying that Highway 1 between Los Angeles and San Francisco IS Los Angeles and San Francisco, which is just silly. Highway 1 is just the road to get getting to those places, not the places themselves, and it’s not the only road or the only path. You could fly or come by boat.
'luc hates this but he’s not here so…

knowledge:

acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things.
2.
familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning: A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.
3.
acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report: a knowledge of human nature.

experience

a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something: My encounter with the bear in the woods was a frightening experience.
2.
the process or fact of personally observing, encountering, or undergoing something: business experience.
3.
the observing, encountering, or undergoing of things generally as they occur in the course of time: to learn from experience; the range of human experience.

We can experience things and still be pretty clueless about them, and as it happens parenting is a very good example of that, a fact readily verified by all the horrible parents and broken children they’ve produced. The mere doing of a thing doesn’t guarantee that you will do it well or learn to do it any better than you were doing it when you started.

On the other hand, I have knowledge of an enormous number of things that I have absolutely no personal experience with, and so do you. Most people acquire most of their knowledge about most things from a distance, and they do so in advance of having the experience itself, so they will be prepared. Imagine if the only way to acquire knowledge of medicine was to simply hang out a shingle and start treating people!

[wonky]

@Stoid

I said they seem to be doing very well, both in the show, in interviews, and from the limited amount of information available. No one has suggested they aren’t, no one has pointed out some dreadful behavior or moments when their misery has broken through.

So, if these things were to come to light, you would change your opinion? You are, in fact, basing your opinion on this show and this family?

I didin’t make a grand pronouncement…I started a thread stating my opinion in a few simple, un-grandiose sentences.

It seems very clear that it’s a wonderful boon to the women involved, enormous support, plenty of support and supervision for the kids… I just don’t see a downside, if you can manage to handle the expense, which is an issue for lots of families and may be less of one when you have four wives and 2-3 of them work - built in childcare!

On the whole I think monogamy vs. polygamy is all about sexual jealousy, because for raising families it’s hard to make a case that monogamy is better.

You do grandiose a lot.

[Sarahfeena]

OK, moving on from the Browns. Let’s assume that there are people who would love this kind of arrangement. What are the great benefits? Not to the adults, obviously if they would love it, it’s good for them. So, what’s the great benefit in terms of raising a family? Seems to me if you’re the mom who works, this setup is no different from just finding a nice daycare. I mean, if you’re at work, and your kids are with someone else. They aren’t with you, you aren’t with them, and all the stressors I ever felt that were caused by that would probably still exist. About 95% of the “mommy guilt” that working moms feel has nothing to do with who you leave the kid with…it’s about the fact that you aren’t there (maybe this is something that non-parents don’t quite get, I don’t know?) Maybe the kids would be more bonded and happy with the extra wife than they would be to a daycare provider, but that’s not necessarily true if you find a good, stable, consistent caregiver. Plus, the cost of adding an extra wife, and a few more kids, would far outweigh daycare costs. I’m not seeing how it’s worth all the extra trouble.

[wonky]

@Sarahfeena

OK, moving on from the Browns. Let’s assume that there are people who would love this kind of arrangement. What are the great benefits? Not to the adults, obviously if they would love it, it’s good for them. So, what’s the great benefit in terms of raising a family? Seems to me if you’re the mom who works, this setup is no different from just finding a nice daycare. I mean, if you’re at work, and your kids are with someone else. They aren’t with you, you aren’t with them, and all the stressors I ever felt that were caused by that would probably still exist. About 95% of the “mommy guilt” that working moms feel has nothing to do with who you leave the kid with…it’s about the fact that you aren’t there (maybe this is something that non-parents don’t quite get, I don’t know?) Maybe the kids would be more bonded and happy with the extra wife than they would be to a daycare provider, but that’s not necessarily true if you find a good, stable, consistent caregiver. Plus, the cost of adding an extra wife, and a few more kids, would far outweigh daycare costs. I’m not seeing how it’s worth all the extra trouble.

And the amount of contribution from the father gets cut. Nothing like trying to push forward the idea that men are just sperm donors who have no responsibility for kids. It’s a great system if someone thinks that only women need be concerned with child care.

The amount of resources needed by the family as a whole could grow at a much faster pace than a monogamous family would usually find. I like working outside the home, but I think I’d get a little tired of having more and more and more responsibility piled on me to do that to enable another woman to have a ton of kids.

[Sarahfeena]

@jsgoddess

And the amount of contribution from the father gets cut. Nothing like trying to push forward the idea that men are just sperm donors who have no responsibility for kids. It’s a great system if someone thinks that only women need be concerned with child care.

That’s exactly right. In my family, the times that a kid needed us during working hours was shared between me and my husband. In fact, he was more likely to stay home on the occasional day off of school than I was, because he could work at home more easily. So, the kids had their time with him and he was relevant. If there are a couple other moms to pick up the slack, then for sure the dad’s getting edged out…why would he take the time off work if he doesn’t have to?

The amount of resources needed by the family as a whole could grow at a much faster pace than a monogamous family would usually find. I like working outside the home, but I think I’d get a little tired of having more and more and more responsibility piled on me to do that to enable another woman to have a ton of kids.

I agree with this, too. As I said, I was lucky to be able to afford pretty good daycare (though not the ultra-premium nanny situation), and it was far, far cheaper than supporting another wife and 6 kids. I would have had to be much more climbing-the-ladder career focused to support even a couple extra people, which would most likely give me even less time and energy for my own kids. It doesn’t sound great to me.

[Stoid]

@DrDeth

No, they were associated until recently, they split off as far as the Leader around 60 years ago.

Really? Can you point out where that information is? I looked and couldn’t find it. Seriously, not saying it doesn’t exist, I just can’t find it.

Something would be the cite I provided and the quote you selected. And the other cites I selected earlier from Wiki, etc.

Could you be more specific, please, because we clearly remember it differently and that’s extremely vague. Just link and quote, very simple.

You did no research at all, you just went to my cite.

Yes, and I actually read every single page - that’s what research is, not just going there and taking note of the mention of the church and assuming from there, which appears to be what you initially did.

They don;t follow the welfare laws.

Aside from the Wiki allegation, I couldn’t find any reference to that at all. Did you find others?

Their Leader does make decisions for the cult, including marriage, he admits it.

Care to share? Again, I don’t see it. Not saying it isn’t there, it’s just not popping out at me.

One

or one thing, he says the AUB does not practice arranged marriages - members are free to court. And he says the AUB does not condone underage marriage.

Two

“We do not encourage or permit ‘child-bride’ marriages or arranged marriages. Instead, it is a fundamental principle of our faith that it is the sacred privilege of all, male and female, when they are adequately mature, to choose whom they will marry. Forced, arranged, or assigned marriages are not a part of our belief or practice.”

Three

The AUB’s statement notes that the FLDS Church broke off from the Allred group - but criticizes the Texas raid.

“Although we have not had any affiliation with the FLDS for nearly 60 years due to some of these very issues, we are nevertheless deeply concerned that Texas state agencies have violated God given and constitutional rights of the FLDS community at the YFZ Ranch contrary to principles and freedoms that iconic America stands for,” the statement said. “The investigation of alleged criminal activity should not lead to the unnecessary suffering of innocent babies, toddlers, and older children - there are better and more responsible ways to solve this problem.”

Four

The AUB is one of the more liberal of the Mormon groups practicing plural marriage. The leaders of the AUB do not arrange marriages nor do they authorize plural marriages for people under 18 or for those who are closely related.

Five

However, the AUB is best known for their belief in plural marriage, the United Order, the Adam-God doctrine, and what is commonly called the 1886 Meeting (see History section). Child and spouse abuse and incest are considered serious sins, and those members who perpetrate such crimes are excommunicated and the victims are encouraged to report such incidents to the police.

Some interesting comments from AUB Poly wives about their other family members…

Letter to the governor…

Consistent with our belief of free agency, **the AUB does not arrange marriage between its members. **We further view intermarriage between close relatives as an abomination of God’s law. We discourage dating until the age of 17 and advise our young adult members to postpone considering marriage until their vocational or college education is obtained, or at least until the age of 21. Toward this end, we offer scholarships and financial assistance when possible so our young members may complete their formal education. Marriage should be the result of love and commitment between consenting individuals, where women are deemed equal to men in every way. Only through the exercise of a person’s free agency should a person decide whether to undertake the benefits and responsibilities of plural marriage, and whom to marry. Church leaders do not make these decisions for its members.

Central to our belief of free agency is the responsibility to become self-sufficient, law-abiding members of society. The AUB does not believe it is above governance by man but find it unfortunate that one of our fundamental religious beliefs was placed outside the law by what amounted to extortion by the federal government as a price of statehood over one hundred years ago. Nevertheless, AUB members are required to abide by the law and we can point to a long history of openness and cooperation with law enforcement and social agencies when dealing with transgressions by our members.

and

Finally, the AUB discourages its members from seeking state and federal assistance such as food stamps and Medicaid. This is often difficult because the stigma accompanying our lifestyle makes it difficult to compete in the economic marketplace. However, AUB members prefer to provide assistance to one another rather than rely on government resources.

Now HERE’s some fascinating stuff from Polygamy: A Cross-Cultural Analysis

Today, as in the nineteenth century, a sizeable proportion of women appear to
enter polygamous marriage involuntarily under pressure, and for them polygamy can
become a burden. But just as many or even more contemporary Mormon women,
as their nineteenth-century forebears, appear to strongly support the practice of
plural marriage

In a study
of women in an AUB polygamous community, Bennion (1998) describes how plural
wives achieve economic security and personal autonomy through their female
networks. Rather than being subjugated and helpless victims of a male-dominated
culture, as they are often portrayed to be, women in these polygamous groups were
quickly integrated and enjoyed upward social mobility. This explains why so many
female converts join this group and stay there; the women are typically attempting to
improve their socio-economic status and **in the process leave behind their marginal
status in the mainstream Mormon Church. Increasing numbers of mainstream
Mormon women are starting to consider polygamy as a solution **to such difficulties
as single-motherhood, spinsterhood, poverty and loneliness. For the women already
‘living the principle’, often in isolated polygamous settlements, new wives are seen
as new companions to socialize with, friends who will help you cope with an often
hostile outside world, and co-workers who will help you run the household. As such,
sister-wives can be important and cherished parts of each other’s lives (Altman and
Ginat 1996: 99).

To many researchers, however, the
question of women’s subjugation in polygyny cannot be examined without focusing
on the women themselves and their internal relationships. To a woman in a polygynous
marriage, the bond to other adult females, including both the husband’s female kin
as well as her co-wives, may constitute a more critical relationship than that with
her husband for her productive, reproductive and personal achievements (Anderson
2000). Several studies have indeed demonstrated the potentially cooperative nature
of polygynous relationships. It is therefore not possible to generalize as to whether
polygyny is by nature competitive or cooperative. It depends on the particular
polygynous context, in which co-wives may negotiate their relative statuses within
the domestic group through both competitive and cooperative strategies (Solway
1990; Madhavan 2002).
It is thus essential to examine both inter- and intra-gender relations in polygamous
unions in order to examine the postulated association between polygamy and the
subjugation of women.

REgarding the issue of females as automatically inferior in polygamy:

The matrix gender–power–polygamy is woven into the very fabric of the institution,
because there is a fundamental inequality in one person having the possibility
of marrying several spouses, whereas these spouses can only marry one person
in return. And where there is inequality there is power. When examining power
relations within polygamy, however, one cannot automatically assume where this
power is located, or what indeed its substance is. As was the case for marriage, there
are numerous definitions of power (e.g. Connell 1987). Here, Max Weber’s (1948)
classic definition is used, namely that power is the likelihood that a person within a
social relationship will be able to execute his will even if others resist it

Several researchers have grappled with the question of whether polygyny
enhances female autonomy or ensures male dominance. The question is a pertinent
one, because it guides how one sees polygyny at its most basic level: does polygyny
involve two matricentric families attached to the same male or two patriarchal
nuclear families sharing the same husband/father (Clignet and Sween 1981: 466)?
While many researchers believe that polygyny suppresses women, as mentioned,
others believe that polygyny may give some women considerable independence.
One can find studies to support both positions, and it comes down to the particular
group being studied and the particular researcher involved.

And from an interview with the Browns before the show:

Q: Did you and your wives grow up in plural families?
A: I grew up in the LDS Church. My parents adopted a “fundamentalist” belief when I was young. One of my wives, the second, grew up in the LDS faith as well. The other two grew up as “fundamentalists” in the faith I have adopted.

REgarding the school issue:

Q: Do your children attend public, private or home school?
A: When the children were small, we did home school. Now they are all in a private school. This fall my oldest child will attend public high school. He has already made friends in the athletic programs. He is a very well-adjusted individual, so I do not worry about him fitting in.

One of thewives (they weren’t completely “out”)

Finally, there is a great deal of companionship. The four of us have some great conversations. I will be honest, it took a few years for us to become more secure in who we were. Until that, the emotions were sometimes too high to be very good friends, but now I find that I prefer to spend time, as much if not more, with my family than friends.

Soooo. what do you have to share?

[Guinastasia]

Guys, just give up. This is just like her legal threads, the law library, etc. Everyone who disagrees is just wrong, because Stoid is always right. Period.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Guinastasia

Guys, just give up. This is just like her legal threads, the law library, etc. Everyone who disagrees is just wrong, because Stoid is always right. Period.

IDK how this is the same at all. She’s going in circles and not accomplishing anything here, but didn’t that other stuff turn out in her favor? I don’t know why you’re bringing up something that’s so unrelated, Guin.

[zweisamkeit]

@DiosaBellissima

IDK how this is the same at all. She’s going in circles and not accomplishing anything here, but didn’t that other stuff turn out in her favor? I don’t know why you’re bringing up something that’s so unrelated, Guin.

Oh, snap!

[DiosaBellissima]

@zweisamkeit

Oh, snap!

Huh?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Um…that other stuff did not turn out in her favor.

[Stoid]

@DiosaBellissima

IDK how this is the same at all. She’s going in circles and not accomplishing anything here, but didn’t that other stuff turn out in her favor? I don’t know why you’re bringing up something that’s so unrelated, Guin.

Because I annoy the hell out of Guin and she looks for excuses to bring up the legal threads (which were also demonstrations of the fallacies I linked to earlier) in hopes it will trigger derision and dismissal, and it often works. I assume this gives her a warm and fuzzy feeling.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Stoid

Because I annoy the hell out of Guin and she looks for excuses to bring up the legal threads (which were also demonstrations of the fallacies I linked to earlier) in hopes it will trigger derision and dismissal, and it often works. I assume this gives her a warm and fuzzy feeling.

So wait-- you did win, right?

[Stoid]

@DiosaBellissima

So wait-- you did win, right?

Heavens no.

Beyond that, thank you for respecting my wish not to discuss it further.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@DiosaBellissima

So wait-- you did win, right?

She got her ass handed to her, just like everybody who knew anything told her she would, and for just the reasons.

[Stoid]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

She got her ass handed to her, just like everybody who knew anything told her she would,

Yes.

and for just the reasons.

No.
And that’s the end of it.

I thank you for NOW actually respecting my wish not to discuss it further, whether you do so AT me or AROUND me, and most particularly not by hijacking my thread.

Much obliged.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

That’s fair enough, and actually, Stoid, I was too mean with my last post. I apologize.

[wonky]

@Sarahfeena

That’s exactly right. In my family, the times that a kid needed us during working hours was shared between me and my husband. In fact, he was more likely to stay home on the occasional day off of school than I was, because he could work at home more easily. So, the kids had their time with him and he was relevant. If there are a couple other moms to pick up the slack, then for sure the dad’s getting edged out…why would he take the time off work if he doesn’t have to?

I agree with this, too. As I said, I was lucky to be able to afford pretty good daycare (though not the ultra-premium nanny situation), and it was far, far cheaper than supporting another wife and 6 kids. I would have had to be much more climbing-the-ladder career focused to support even a couple extra people, which would most likely give me even less time and energy for my own kids. It doesn’t sound great to me.

Considering how much drama we often see just from people dealing with stepkids who are, usually, limited in number and whose parent is not necessarily hanging around the house all day every day, I find it extremely unlikely that most people would feel up to working extra hard to support kids just because their spouse got horny. I just start thinking about what I would have felt had my husband knocked someone up and I was supposed to support not only the new kid but the new kid’s mom. What in the world would be in it for me? I would be sharing my husband, so the level of support would go down there. I would be supporting more people, so the level of effort would go up there. And I would have to have extraneous people in my face that I couldn’t just avoid or drop.

To go the other direction, the idea of multiple husbands makes me want to go hide somewhere.

[Guinastasia]

It wasn’t just your legal threads – it was your thread about the legal library, or the “advice vs. info” thread, or the Holocaust video thread. Anyone who disagrees is WRONG, nope, Stoid knows all.