When I read the title of this thread (“I’ve got the Mormon wedding blues”) I expected the OP to complain he couldn’t afford two wedding gowns.
Kidding, kidding. [Big grinny here.]
(Dang, this thread is long. I didn’t read it all. I hope no one else made the same joke.)
Nope. Nobody but you thought it’s funny!
Monty: How many times do you have to read, hear, or otherwise have it brought to you attenton that to the OP’s aunt the threats were very real?
I don’t give a rat’s ass what the church doctrine is, she felt threatened.
“The temples are not for the general public.” I can respect that. They have chosen to have their ceremony in an exclusive setting. Good on 'em, if that’s what they want. Just don’t expect me to show up and hang around outside as a second class citizen.
That’s why I’d mail ‘em a card with some money and go fishin’ instead of buying airplane tickets to Utah.
Thank you for the best laugh I’ve had all day!!!
Speak for yourself Monty
Perhaps an enema would help your disposition…and you’d be able to see the humor in more things. Just a thought :rolleyes: :wally
Kathy
I noticed something very interesting:
Number of posts on this thread (to this point)
Monty 27
Diane 12
…
and the OP has only 5?
I hate to say it, Monty, but pull that big stick out of your ass and realize that you’re not changing anyone’s mind here. Some very good points have been brought up, and you seem to delight in crapping all over other people’s opinions.
stuyguy, you rock - gave me a great laugh with that line.
And cadolphin is wrong, sorry honey…If someone was brave enough to give Monty an enema, there would be nothing left of him. :eek:
Monty, get a life, get a laugh, and enjoy life both in and out of your church. It is possible.
Nah. But I knew right off what sentence you must’ve misread, and in what way.
John: The threats were made up. The woman lied. As I’ve said, her story, and that’s all it is, doesn’t pass any kind of sanity check.
Number of posts made by Rico that actually makes sense today: 0.
cadolphin: You can join CrazyCat in going blowing.
RTF: It’s more likely that you mis-stated (freudian slip) your comment. Look over the thread and see what other people have said about your comment comparing Mormon marriage to Christian marriage. And then when I stated that Mormons are Christians, you responded by telling me that you disagree with that particular comment. In other words: There was no misreading.
You can’t say the woman lied unless you have personal first hand knowledge of the situation. She may have been threatened, she may have mis-interpreted what was said to her and taken it as threats, she may be lying.
I have seen (possibly) well-meaning church members and officials scare others badly in the past. It’s possible that’s what happened in this case also.
I don’t know what else to say to someone who will make the statement: “The woman lied”, when they weren’t a party to the proceedings and can’t know if she lied or not.
C 'ya.
Reality Checks aren’t your forte, are they, John?
Yikes, this thread is getting a little too heated.
How would you feel if someone patronized your sacred spiritual beliefs and practices, then took it personal when you defended those beliefs? A lot of LDS (atleast in my experience) go through something as “I know what you believe and what you do better than you do” from a lot of non members. It tends to make some defensive, and for good reason. Every sincere and devout LDS takes their beliefs seriously, and doesn’t like it when people attack those beliefs.
Also, I remind myself that in my experiences in the church, a lot of people will change, but the church will remain the same. In different areas members can be less accepting or more cruel to those around them. It’s not the church’s leaders. doctrine, or practices, but the misguided actions of some of it’s members.
Well said, Pathros.
Additionally, I don’t “crap all over” people’s well-formed opinions. The ill-informed opinions of bigots are a different matter.
Monty, if it’s so well said, why don’t you pay closer attention to this part? “In different areas, members can be less accepting or more cruel to those around them. It’s not the church’s leaders, doctrine, or practices, but the misguided actions of some of its members.”
Pathros, this thread has not been an attack on Monty’s beliefs, nor an attack on the Church. There have been some ill-considered hijacks, but in the main, posters to this thread has demonstrated great understanding , and have counseled greater understanding and loving kindness on the part of the OP.
No one who takes SDMB’s mission seriously, however, is going to let Monty’s leap of logic go unquestioned. Yes, the story related by the OP regarding her aunt defies logic, the laws of the Church, and the laws of her state. Yet there are many possible explanations for this: yes, she may have lied, but she may instead be delusional, or mistaken, or simply stupid. Perhaps she was lied to by church members. I know there are liars, bigots, and other hateful people in other churches; how can you be so sure there are not one or two such hiding among the Saints? Perhaps even among the Elders? I would guess that there is blame to spread around.
No, Monty. Members of a large church wouldn’t “go around” telling someone that, at all.
But in the United States, an ex-husband, who is a member of a large church could very easily imply to his ex-wife – who is on the outs with that church (for whatever reason) – that he is going to bring custody proceedings against them. And he is going to have a number of witnesses on his side, who are all members of the church. And of course, many of the official parties involved – social workers, court personnel, attorneys and judges – would also be members of that church. Then that ex-husband, preying upon his ex-wife’s nastiest fears and deepest hurts could easily suggest that the very fact that his ex-wife is no longer in good standing with the church would be used against her in the custody process.
“I’m going to go, with my upstanding Mormon lawyer, to a court with an upstanding Mormon judge, and parade a dozen upstanding Mormons in to testify, and they’ll talk about how you’ve gotten. They’ll talk about what a bad influence you are on our kids because you’re not taking them to church on Sunday, and how you’re not teaching them well in the home anymore. They’ll tell the judge about how bitter and spiteful you’ve become toward me and our entire community. And you know that I’ll win!”
It wouldn’t be the church doing it, it wouldn’t be sanctioned by the church, the church as an institution and as a body would have nothing to do with it. It would be individuals, to be sure, but if the person who is not in good standing with the church is feeling persecuted and ostracized from her community because of her situation with the church, it could very easily be seen as all one thing. The individuals are the community and the community is the church and everything is equivalent in her mind.
And when she tells her story to sympathetic ears, that’s how she tells it. The church (which is the community which is made up of individuals, one of whom is her ex-husband) was going to take her children away from her. The church is keeping her from being at her son’s wedding. All of the negative aspects in her life which are in any small fashion connected to the church – if only because the people involved are church members – are going to be somehow blamed on the church.
It’s not right, but it’s what she feels. It’s not accurate, but it’s how things have been built up in her mind.
This isn’t someone you should be angry with, this is someone you should pity. Her life isn’t what she’d hoped, and she needs to blame it on someone or something, and her former church – that which was once sacred and sustaining to her – is bearing that blame. It’s a sad thing.
tlw: Last time I checked, I’m not stupid. I will thank you not to talk to me like I’m stupid.
Monty: “He said X, but I know he really was saying Y, because later he happened to say Y,” is not a valid argument.
Look, Christians generally have no fundamental objection to using electricity, but the Amish…ehh, why bother?
Hey Monty, if you think the OP’s story is a lie, I’ve got a real whopper for you:
So there’s this large, well-organized church. And some crazy people have been going around saying that some of the leaders of this chuch are child molesters. But these real nutcases don’t stop there: they say that those even higher up in this large church are protecting these pervs. Of course, there are (or were at least) plenty of members of this church lined up to call the “victims” liars.
I mean, their story doesn’t even pass a basic sanity check. Whooo-boy are these people nuts or what; I mean, no large mainstream church would do that kind of thing…obviously. This story is so clearly divergent from reality that nobody would believe it, right?
Truth is stranger than fiction.
Understanding on the part of the OP, as in what? They agree with the OP’s viewpoint? (perhaps I misunderstand) IF that is the case, then they completely miss what Monty and others have been saying. The point is that this topic entails not just basic religous affiliation and beliefs, but deeper sacred principals that members of the LDS church do not take lightly.
RT: What you just posted does not even come close to being an accurate representation of what I said. Try again.
Yeah, and sooooo? Everyone is so quick to toss out the whiny “it’s not faaaaaaaaaaaa-ir”. But it’s their wedding, and just like those who choose to elope to Vegas or marry in a small submarine, IT’S THEIR CHOICE.
Get over it.
I’m gonna call a big, fat bullshit on that one, especially in light of the “being excommunicated because the husband cheated and we got divorced” claim. The aunt is either (1) lying due to her bitterness at being excommunicated (for reasons that haven’t been shared and are NOT the reasons stated, I can assure you), or (2) Nicol misunderstood, was lied to by her aunt, or embellished this story.
Just like the getting married in the Tabernacle mistake.
As I said, the church has services for women who have children out of wedlock and NONE of them include taking a baby away from the mother unless she chooses adoption.
I guess some of us aren’t getting through here, but shit, this ain’t brain surgery, people.
The Temple ceremony is NOT your typical wedding ceremony. It is a modest but extremely religious rite meant to be shared between the bride and groom. It is the reception/ring exchange/party afterward that is meant to be shared with family and friends. No one is prohibited from coming to that ceremony.
I know you were talking to Monty, but you did mention my name in your number of posts score card. I am most certainly NOT LDS or any other religion, but I know enough of about the LDS church to know when someone is spewing bullshit, whether it be Nicol or the aunt.
tlw - Your posts would make sense if that was the way things really worked in an excommunication process or how the LDS treat unwed mothers. It’s not, so it doesn’t.
The aunts excommunication and unwed mother story, at least in the way Nicol told it, is complete and total bullshit but if it helps support your bigotry, go for it.