I try very hard to avoid religious conversation with a good friend of mine, a Lutheran, because he cannot keep his biased opinions to himself. This time I did not try hard enough.
To make it short: He said that my religious belief (Hinduism) was selfish because Karma requires one to do good deeds in order to have good things happen to him/her. I argued that selfish motivations can be ascribed to anyone, no matter how pious, and that no religion is immune from such criticism.
The question:
He claimed Christianity was better because you are always assured a place in Heaven thanks to God’s Grace, and you only do good works out of appreciation. Therefore you don’t act for selfish reasons, because no matter what you do you will go to Heaven.
Now, I attended a Catholic school for six years and I am quite certain that’s not a Catholic way of thinking. I guess I’m not familiar with Lutheranism, so could someone explain this to me? All I have to do is attend church and I can do all the sinning I want? Is it really impossible to ascribe selfish motivations to Protestantism or Lutheranism?
The “Only Faith” vs “Only Works” vs “Faith and Works” arguments in Christianity are usually carried out by people with little understanding of the actual debates that scored Europe in the 16th century. There are genuine differences among the various views, but serious students recognize that the simplistic formulations of the arguments are caricatures.
Now, it is true that “Only Faith” was one of the cries of Luther (and “Works” feature prominently in Catholic theology) so there is probably, at core, a difference in your perceptions and those of your friend, but I would tend to side with you that any belief system can be corrupted.
(You could, for example, claim that he is “only” choosing to believe so as to (selfishly) be saved.) As James said in his Epistle, chapter 2, (causing Luther to make rude comments about that letter and consider throwing it out from his canon),
Whereas I believe very much in the validity of Christianity over Hinduism, in this matter, you are on target, whereas he is dealing on a purely theoretical level.
I trust Christ because I believe that guarantees me a one-way direct ticket to Heaven- that can be regarded as pretty selfish. (Btw, I don’t discount the possibility of reincarnation but I don’t really believe in it either.)
It would be pretty damned (pardon the expression) difficult to conceptualize a theology with no appeal to selfishness at all.
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall go to Heaven, live forever, and all your sins shall be forgiven”
But why would I want that?
" … um, well, um, it will please God immeasurably should you do so."
Why would I wish God to be pleased?
" … Well it might be a good idea since it is from God that all blessings flow, and if God is not pleased you might be denied all blessings, and suffer accordingly."
But why would I seek to avoid that?
" … look, the purpose of life itself, the reason we exist and our fulfillment, is to be reunited with God."
Yes, but why would I want to be fulfilled?
" :mad: … how about because if you don’t your estrangement from God will be for eternity and will be as if you were burning in the fires of Hell, then?"
Umm, yes, I’ve heard that, but why would I want to avoid that?
Look, you can pretty much forget all the theological and philosophical discussion, because that’s not really what the OP’s coworker was saying. Saranga’s associate was not really commenting on the issue of faith vs. good works. What this person was REALLY saying was this:
My religion is good and yours is bad.
Pretty much any half-assed rationalization can be plastered to this central belief.
Having some verbal judo throws never hurts if you have to defend your faith.
As I understand this, it’s a question of mutual benefit possibly leading to reincarnation in a better life vs. altruism in the face of known salvation. The latter argument implies that salvation cannot be revoked regardless of what we do. The problem I’ve always had with that argument is a poor life, while claiming salvation, is hypocritical at best as well as spiritually bankrupt. I tend to look at actions as reflecting the condition of someones spirituality and beliefs, and as a way of creating God’s kingdom here on earth. I’m much less focused on the afterlife than I am on doing good for others here and now, in the hopes that others will do the same for me. In that way, we can try to build heaven on earth.
So according to him doing good serves nothing else then selfishness? Strange ideas hat man has (at the very least).
So according to him you can do whatever you want, you always go to heaven? If you only say “Jesus saves”, run to a church, get a splash of water over your head and swallow a piece of bread that is to be taken as “the flesh of Jesus” you can kill him and still go straigh up to heaven when you happen do die accidentaly yourself during the act of killing him?
I would tell him that I am ready to try this belief system out and that I appreciate his offer to be my guinea pig.
Salaam. A
… um, well, um, it will please God immeasurably should you do so."