[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Cicada2003 *
**Cavalier: WHAT presumption of innocence? You mean like maybe this guy misinterpreted the fact that she was asleep in the presence of a bed as tacit consent? That’s bullshit.
No, I think Cavalier is referring to the fact that everything Sam Hell has heard about the case is second-hand information.
I do remember the case Cavalier referred to. I believe it was in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh? A woman accused a boy of rape, he was beaten to death, and it turned out the woman had invented the story for the purpose of getting him beaten. A very sad case.
I’m not saying that’s the case with Sam Hell’s friend.
But I do think this is what we have police for. If he’s guilty, he deserves the worst they can throw at him. Absolutely.
I remember a woman I knew casually, a friend of a friend, who came up to me one night in a bar and told me with great emotion that her boyfriend had raped her just recently. I was surprised that she was spilling her guts to me. In fact, she was spilling her guts to everyone. Yet she wouldn’t go to police.
Then a couple of my friends went to the former boyfriend and seriously beat him.
At the time, it never occurred to me to think anything else but that she was telling the absolute truth.
All these years later, it bothers me though. She told everyone who would listen, even me, who barely knew her. But she said she didn’t want the police to find out. So now I wonder …
To all of you who believe that being accused of rape ought to carry an automatic death sentence, my advice is this: be very, very careful you never get a woman mad at you.
Ooops. Reposting to fix quotation.
No, I think Cavalier is referring to the fact that everything Sam Hell has heard about the case is second-hand information.
I do remember the case Cavalier referred to. I believe it was in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh? A woman accused a boy of rape, he was beaten to death, and it turned out the woman had invented the story for the purpose of getting him beaten. A very sad case.
I’m not saying that’s the case with Sam Hell’s friend.
But I do think this is what we have police for. If he’s guilty, he deserves the worst they can throw at him. Absolutely.
I remember a woman I knew casually, a friend of a friend, who came up to me one night in a bar and told me with great emotion that her boyfriend had raped her just recently. I was surprised that she was spilling her guts to me. In fact, she was spilling her guts to everyone. Yet she wouldn’t go to the police.
Then a couple of my friends went to the former boyfriend and seriously beat him.
At the time, it never occurred to me to think anything else but that she was telling the absolute truth.
All these years later, it bothers me though. She told everyone who would listen, even me, who barely knew her. But she said she didn’t want the police to find out. So now I wonder …
To all of you who believe that being accused of rape ought to carry an automatic death sentence, my advice is this: be very, very careful you never get a woman mad at you.
Hmmmm can I string this guy up by his so called balls pretty please 
How 'bout these possibilities?
-
There is no guy. The event never happened. The girl in question was jerking Sam Hell’s chain. Or she had consentual sex, regretted it the next day and came up with a story.
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There is no girl. Sam Hell is jerking our chain.
-
OR, Sam Hell’s friend is jerking his chain. Note that in the OP, he doesn’t say he spoke to her directly, or has even met her.
I’m sure there are other possibilites as well.
No, no, no! The mob has spoken.
Idiot!
For purposes of advice giving, why don’t we presume that the girl was actually raped and go from there? Now, if you want to start a new thread on the pros and cons of mob violence, go right ahead.
Anyway. A good place to go for information on these things is http://www.rainn.org - I found it very helpful when my roommate was assaulted. They can help find a crisis center, give advice, all of that.
Those of you pointing out (the blindingly obvious fact) that on an Internet Message Board, we have no factual evidence of the anecdotes members recount from their own lives:
can we pretty fucking please get a chorus of “Duh!” and move on? If you’re unwilling to stipulate that Sam is telling the truth, then this medium isn’t useful to you.
That said, holy shit! Sam, I’m so sorry for your friend’s girlfriend, and for your friend, and for you. That’s horrific and awful.
I guess, were I your friend, I’d arrange counseling for myself posthaste. I’m not a big believer in counseling normally, but this seems an exception.
I’d talk to the rape victim and find out what she wanted. She might want me to handle administrative trivia for awhile – she might want me to arrange doctor’s appointments, counseling appointments, etc. In which case, I’d do it. Or she might want time in her own head. In which case, I’d give it to her. She’s at the center of the tragedy, and her concerns need to be absolutely paramount.
While violent revenge fantasies are immensely satisfying, they should remain fantasies: to do otherwise, I think, is only going to make matters worse.
How fucking horrible; I’m really sorry to hear that.
Daniel
Did SPOOJE have a really bad day or is he /she just a rude ass all the time?
The best thing you can do in a situation like this is to be a friend. Realize that rape isn’t something that most survivors “get through” quickly – it may be weeks or months before the friend needs you to listen/help talk through things.
I’d also encourage you to get involved with a rape or domestic violence crisis center in your area. I knew it meant a lot to me when I saw men being involved and speaking out against sexual assault – it restored my faith that not all men were like the monster who raped me.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and everyone else involved in the situation.
The problem is, of course, that this is an “Internet Message Board”. I have NO fucking idea how suggestible Sam Hell is, nor how susceptible to our (we the posters of this Message Board) influence he may be. At a guess I’d say he’s a regular guy, as reasonable and capable of critical thinking as the next.
But maybe not, and there have been more than one poster egging him on to the use of deadly force.
No-one has had any issue whatsoever with any of the constructive advice offered, that same no-one has hinted that Sam should take his friend’s position anything less than seriously and with utmost sympathy.
Some have suggested, very un-fucking-helpfully, that Sam consider taking the law into his own hands, and that ain’t fighting ignorance, that’s propagating it.
Arguments that amount to “DON’T TAKE THE LAW INTO YOUR OWN HANDS” are on-topic, pertinent, healthy, informed advice. “String 'em up” ain’t.
And can I just say:
FUCKING HELL MODERATORS! Do you all have your heads up your arses?
I agree with you that suggesting he take the law into his own hands is fucked up advice.
But it’s fucked up no matter the circumstances. People who are suggesting that Sam might be lying about this, or that his friend’s girlfriend might be lying, are being pretty fucking unhelpful too.
When someone comes to you with incredible hurt, why the fuck would your first reaction be to tell them that you think they might be lying? (not YOUR first reaction, TGU, but that of some other folks in the thread).
It’s a messageboard. You obviously don’t ever have evidence that anyone is ever telling the truth on it. For the thing to work, you gotta give other members the benefit of the doubt.
Let me repeat: advising Sam (or his friend) to take the law into his own hands is a very bad idea. But it’s a bad idea if the rape happened exactly as described: you don’t need to insinuate that someone is lying to make it a bad idea.
Again, Sam, I’m very sorry for your friend’s girlfriend; that’s horribly wrong.
Daniel
Daniel, I have to disagree with saying the girlfriend might be lying is unhelpful. As unpopular as this opinion may be, I think he SHOULD calm down and find out if there is any evidence that this really happened before getting all worked up about it, and here’s why…
A number of years ago, back when BBS’s were still very popular, a friend of mine “met” and fell in love with a girl online. They chatted all the time, and eventually moved to telephone conversations, which grew more and more intimate. Soon, there was talk of her moving out to be with him, of marriage, of a life together. She meant everything to him, which made it all the worse when he heard about all the horrible things that had happened to her.
Because it seemed that EVERYTHING bad happened to her. Her parents were sick, her sister died in a car accident, she was ill herself with some undiagnosed illness, her car got stolen, she had a stalker abusive ex, and so on. My friend was torn apart over all the things that happened to her, which he was helpless to prevent.
Well, time passed, and she eventually made plans to come out and see him. He worked his ass off, bought her plane tickets, and waited the day of her arrival, and the day he would finally get to meet her in person. When she came in, however, she was in a terrible state…it seems that the night before, she had gone to a bar, and on her way home she was raped. She couldn’t tell the police because she was too ashamed, no matter how much he insisted she do so. Finally he relented, and he also understood that she wanted to sleep on the couch and not have any close physical contact. She stayed for a week. He took her out, he bought her things to comfort her, he spent a lot of money trying to make her happy. When the week was over, they had a tearful goodbye, and she flew home.
That was the last he heard from her. Within a week, her account was canceled, her phone disconnected, and he had no means of contacting her. In a panic, he began asking around the different BBS’s to see if anyone heard from her. Turns out, someone had. In fact, that someone knew, strangely enough, nearly everything that had happened to her, and how the visit went. It turned out that it was because she had done the exact same thing to him. Further investigation showed that she had done it to a number of people…traveling on their expenses, showing up with a story about being victimized, getting them to buy her things, and then disappearing.
All that said, I am not saying in any way that the girl mentioned in the OP is doing this. I do not know her, and I cannot say whether she is sincere or not. However, claiming that urging caution before action, especially when the whole story is not clear, is hardly unhelpful.
If this girl was indeed raped, I pray that her attacker is found, and that the proper authorities deal with the situation. Taking the law in to your own hands is flat out unacceptable.
All right, Sam Hell, you win. I concede defeat and owe you $50.
This is one of the best experiments you’ve run so far. I seriously doubted you could get so many ordinary and seemingly reasonable people to turn into an unthinking mob so quickly. You win. This goes up there along with the noted experiments on turning ordinary college students into beligerent prison guards, or getting ordinary people to administer heavy and painful electrical shocks just because they were told to. When your paper is complete, please post it here.
Thanks.
DISCLAIMER:
No, I don’t actually know Sam Hell or his motives.
And neither, I suspect, does anyone else posting here.
It could be a test of your reactions, or he could be legit. I don’t know.
In Florida, a woman once came forward with a horrible story of being raped. She identified her attacker as a black man, and white residents went through the town of Rosewell and rioted. Many people were killed and homes destroyed. In fact, IIRC, the entire town was destroyed. If anyone has the complete facts or a link, please post it.
Anyway, it turned out that the woman had not been raped. I believe that she feared she was pregnant and made up the story.
So when you say “when someone comes to you with incredible hurt,” you are presuming the facts of rape to be already established. There is a movement that says that to doubt the claims of an alleged rape victim is to “re-victimize” her. In other words, no reaction except belief is legitimate, and any questioning of an unproven story is an offense.
Now, if a friend came to me with this story, I actually would show no disbelief. I would offer her every comfort and support I could. However, I would internally suspend judgment because I just don’t know.
Satisfying Andy Licious, there was a movie about it several years ago. The incident was real; it happened in the 1920’s and the name of both the town and the movie was “Rosewood.” Here’s a website with a description of the incident and the movie. I don’t recommend it to people who are easily outraged. A friend of mine who’s black encouraged me to watch it when it debuted in the theaters; I refused, because I didn’t want to walk out of the theater wanting to deck someone. I rented it when it came out on video. After watching it, I called him with my reaction which was, as I suspected, spoiling for a fight.
I understand the outrage and the desire for violence accompanying what samarm described. Assuming the incident did happen the way it did, and it seems a fair enough assumption to me, I would also like to make the girl’s rapist experience as much pain and horror as he inflicted on her. If she, or anyone else is lying about this, I’d like them to learn a lesson about actions and consequences, and there is a touch of euphemism in that statement.
Real world, practical advice has already been given. Urge the girl as strongly as possible to get into counseling and go to the police. One thing she may not have thought about is, if this man is allowed to get away with this (insert usual disclaimers), he has no reason not to rape another woman.
I’m sorry this happened.
CJ
Rude?
I only illustrated that calling for a man’s head may be a bit premature seeing as we don’t really know what happened. Sam Hell was relaying a story from a woman whom he had not even met and had only a couple of phone coversations with.
Some posters took the story as gospel truth right off the bat. I offered several other possible scenarios.
I don’t think I was rude at all. BTW, I’m a ‘he’.
OK…so far. no problem.
OK…still no real problem…lots of people have relationships without ever having met face-to-face.
Slight problem…who does she not want touching her?? Your friend (HER boyfriend) hasn’t met her yet…so who would be confronting her physical boundaries enough to warrant her making such exclamations?
Just a query…who is giving you the ‘descriptions’ if your friend hasn’t even met her yet? And what has been the nature of YOUR phone conversations with her, if she is indeed having a relationship with your ‘friend’?
I have no argument with this whatsoever.
It feels even odder that you have such a vested interest in seeking advice about someone who neither you nor your friend have even met, and have no way of ascertaining the veracity or otherwise of her testimony. I note that you say “How can I help my friend?” Surely the lady first, and then your ‘friend’ secondly should have called the police. Why should YOU need to 'get him to call the police…in case she won’t?"
I am NOT saying that the rape did not occur, (and I think any person who has been violated in such a way should seek recourse to the criminal justice system and intensive counselling), but I am curious about Sam Hell’s involvement and the intensity of his ire, given that he is somewhat removed from the situation. There is something decidedly weird about all of this.
[/insertion of 2 bobs worth]
OK people, an update and a few clarifications:
She is feeling a little better and is pressing charges. This all happened over this last weekend, was someone she knew, and he gave her two broken ribs and a broken wrist as well. He is now in custody and I believe she’s in therapy. If it makes you feel better, you can put the words “allegedy” and “so she says” in there where ever you like.
I try to be logical and analytical as much as I can, so I agree with what some people have said: You’re right. None of you know me from the guy on the street. I can SAY I’m a normal regular guy, but how are you to know and why should you believe me? All I can say is, I think I’m a regular guy, and as far as I know this all went down as I have told it. Why I say “How can I help my friend?” Instead of “How can I help her?” is because I know he (the boyfriend) will help her, but someone needs to help him. I neglected to mention she has roommates, btw.
I am only reporting what I have been told, by a person (my friend) who I have come to trust and whose motivations for lying to me are uncertian. You’re right, I don’t know her at all, and have no reason to assume she’s telling the truth OR that she’s lying, except my knowledge of my friend and my few phone conversations with her. I did believe him and her because my shock at what he told me had happened overwhelmed my normal “cynical bastard” attitude. Honestly, do I KNOW what happened, even beyond a shadow of a doubt? No. If I am wrong and we have all been duped, it will be a bitter lesson. Of course, how can I suggest to him that she’s lying? On the other hand, how could I watch him get torn up by a lying manipulative bitch, if that’s whats going on here, and not have said anything?
Why did I tell the folks at the SDMB? 'Cause I like it here. I needed a (relatively) objective response and just someone to vent to. Perhaps it was the wrong thing to do, I really can’t say. Too late now.
Wishing violence on this guy is an understandable response, but pointless and dangerous. I would like it to happen, assuming he’s guilty, but I wouldn’t do it personally regardless. Let’s just say if something DID happen and he’s guilty, I wouldn’t feel too bad about it.
In any case, I thank everyone for their responses on this. They all HAVE been helpful in one way or another.
Actually, she broke her own wrist and ribs just to make the case that much more compelling. :rolleyes:
I’m glad she’s pressing charges, Sam. I hope that bastard’s put away. How’s your friend doing? Is he in therapy or anything?