I've never read LOTR. Will I like the movie(s)?

Cafe Society
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Personal suggestion: even though it’s got a very different tone from the LotR trilogy, I’d start with The Hobbit, just because the story starts there. And, it’ll help answer some of the questions that choie had about that part of the story.

Also, if you haven’t read Tolkien before, it’s an easier read than LotR.

I also second the suggestion to read “DM of the Rings”, though, if you don’t play (or are at least familiar with) D&D, much of it might be lost on you. (I know that choie reads Order of the Stick, since she contributes to that thread here, so I think she’d enjoy it.)

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Aw c’mon, Wendell Wagner, please stop harshing the thread’s mellow! I’ve already said I bought the books from Amazon, but I can hardly read 'em until I’ve got 'em. So in the meantime, as the others have said, if we’re planning a group read, we need to decide which book to start with. It’s not like I need the advice to read the book – I’ve been reading for several decades now and have managed to make my reading decisions on my own fairly successfully. (All evidence to the contrary.) I admit that until now those decisions did not include Tolkien, but all things must come in their own time. Pray do not judge me too harshly.

Anyway. Thanks to all for the suggestions. If the other newbies are interested in starting with LOTR, that’s cool with me. Or maybe I can read The Hobbit before starting the group read thread.

caligulathegold, interesting take on the eagles and the larger meaning of Men accomplishing their goals on their own. I would have thought that the message of the Fellowship was the importance of, well, fellowship, between the various races, rather than the ascendency of one over the other. Do Dwarves count as “men,” like Hobbits? I must say that at least in the movies, the Hobbits may not have achieved anything grand, but they certainly had the nicest and most pleasant society. They’re the only ones Jackson shows as producing stuff from the earth, what with the large fields and farming lands. Though of course, Rohan and Gondor are both in the midst of war so they were in siege mentality, not able to spend time in their fields.

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Dwarves are the Eru’s children by adoption, not by choice. Aulë the Vala got impatient waiting for Elves and Men to show up, and built the dwarves. Their fate is uncertain, but is probably tied to Aulë.

Men are different. They find no peace in the world, but always seek for something beyond it. They can achieve things outside of the Ainulindalë (the Music of the Ainur, which ‘created’ the world) which is as Fate to Elves. And when men’s bodies die, their spirits leave the world for places unknown, while the spirits of the elves go to Mandos in Valinor to await judgement and maybe get issued new bodies.

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In terms of LOTR on its own, I agree that “fellowship” is a theme. The other stuff about the ascendency of men comes through Tolkien’s other writings. Both are ‘correct’ interpretations.
See, this can be fun!

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*Definitely *Pratchett–at least if you appreciate the British sense of humor, which if you liked Adams, you probably do. Check out Joss Whedon’s TV series *Buffy the Vampire Slayer *and *Firefly *(and its movie sequel, Serenity). You mentioned Star Trek–which series? If you haven’t watched TNG, check it out. The recent *Battlestar Galactica *was amazing. And those are just a few things off the top of my head. :smiley:

It would be like trying to use your VCR to turn off your remote control.

I would happily see that giant asshole of a dog get carried off and devoured by a Nazgul’s mount.

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Hey now. Weren’t you the one who was praising how Eowyn looked terrified during her fight scenes? She’s in -way- less over her head than Frodo is, having at least, martial training and being on a battlefield. She’s -not- the one who has to listen to a little voice in the corner of her mind every hour of the day, waking or sleeping, telling her how great she could be if she’d only claim the Ring.

Actually, it’s not, though most of Frodo’s strength shows up earlier rather than later. By the time of RotK, he’s pretty much broken. (Though he does have the one scene where he cows Gollum by a combination of force of will and, I think, a tiny bit of Ring usage.) In Fellowship though, for example, when Frodo has been carried across the river by Glorfindel’s (Not Arwen’s) white horse, when he’s wounded and in agony and fading into the wraithworld, and he DRAWS HIS SWORD and cries defiance in the face of the Nine. “By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!” or something along those lines.

I think the book doesn’t make Frodo look as…helpless. He seems more dogged and desperate. Which is interesting because I can’t precisely point to why.

Again, Aragorn isn’t a “Man” - he’s a Numenorian King. The Race of Numenor has a rather extended lifespan as a result of…well, past valor.

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I think it’s in Lost Tales. It’s been ages since I’ve read those, though, so I couldn’t tell you precisely where.

It seems consistent with the “canon” books, though: Remember, Ancalagon the Black couldn’t fly, and the flying dragons when they appeared were a big deal.

The Numenoreans were the epitome of man, not something other than human.

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Me either. I wish I had HOMES on searchable text. I couldn’t find it in UT searchable text.

Ancalagon certainly did fly; It took Earendil on Vingilot to bring him down, and when he fell, he crashed onto Thangorodrim’s towers and broke them.

Glaurung was earth-bound.

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Sauron could adopt a flying form at one time, so it does not seem unreasonable to think that at least some other Maiar could do the same.

Of course The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and History of Middle-earth are compilations of unfinished and unpublished writings, some of which have been extensively edited, paraphrased, or rewritten. They contradict the works that were completed by Tolkien and published with his approval in his lifetime, and they frequently contradict themselves. They are undoubtedly very interesting to people who want to know as much as possible about the development of Tolkien’s literary concepts, but they cannot be considered canon on the level of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. There is really no reason to be certain that every time he used the word Balrog, for example, he had in mind exactly the same creatures with the same characteristics and abilities.

choie, as you plan to start reading the books soon, it might actually be a good idea for you to stop participating in your own thread, or at least refrain from asking more questions for a while. Of course you can do whatever you want, but I think you’re in danger of getting bogged down in minutia before you even get started, not to mention encountering more book spoilers than you already have.

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Obviously, between the two of them, “Project Flying Fire-Breathing Monster”, which was “12 millennia behind schedule and 800% over budget” finally got completed. :smiley:

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(snip)

Due to my current financial situation, I’ll probably be checking them out from the local library, at least for the first book or so. I just want to read LOTR first because I’m getting excited by the prospect of actually reading the book after the movie, something I’ve never done before. choie, since it was your idea, which had you planned on reading first?

As I’ve said, I’d rather read LOTR first, unless doing so would hamper my enjoyment of it or The Hobbit. Are there other newbies besides choie and me who have an opinion? Anybody who read one of them first but wished they did it the other way?

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I’m not a newbie & I’m repeating myself, but I read LOTR before the Hobbit, and I think it’s the way to go coming off seeing the movies. If anyone’s can’t get to a library I have an extra copy.

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TWDuke, I know what you mean about getting bogged down in minutiae, but I promise I won’t let that happen. There are so many names and facts mentioned here that I’m kinda bleeping over them until such time as I can really understand them fully, which I expect will be after or during the book read.

BigT, I admit the anal retentive completist in me balks a little at not going in Tolkien-published order, i.e. beginning with TH, but that’s really not a problem. Jumping right to the meat of the story would be fine too.

So. My thoughts on The Fellowship of the Ring, the second time 'round:

As I said earlier, seeing the film a second time was an incredibly richer experience, especially having seen the rest of the saga. Everything resonated with meaning in a way it couldn’t before. Looking back on my first viewing, I feel as if I’d seen it in a daze; there was so much mythology to take in, so many never-heard-before names and places and items to absorb. Watching it now, I didn’t feel overwhelmed. I understood what was going on … well, better than I had, anyway. In fact, I can’t believe I’ve already seen the EE. So much seemed clear and new to me, I felt as if I were seeing scenes for the first time.

For example, take the initial scene between Gandalf and Saruman. I do not remember their having mentioned the Palantir – indeed, I specifically asked what the hell a Palantir was when someone (I think it was Chronos?) mentioned it during the TTT discussion. Then during ROTK, you guys explained it much more thoroughly (and I saw its destructive qualities during the Pippin/Palantir scene in ROTK). Anyway, sure enough, watching the first film I now know what Gandalf was warning Saruman about, and just how dangerous/destructive the Palantir is, not just because of Pippin but especially knowing thanks to you guys that it is what caused Denethor’s madness.

As I said, the story and characters meant so much more to me now that I know how things end up. Frodo especially … his innocence, his happiness and his love for the Shire were all especially bittersweet. I found myself angrier with Bilbo than I was originally; I found his behavior highly selfish. Of course, he didn’t know just how deadly the ring was, so I guess it’s not fair to blame him for how Frodo suffers, but still.

I remember remarking originally that one of my favorite moments of FOTR was the regretful, concerned look on Gandalf’s face when Frodo steps forth during the Council meeting and volunteers to bear the ring to Mordor. Well, this time, you can multiply my reaction by ten: now I know just what Gandalf is dreading, now I know exactly the horrible burden that bastardly ring will place on Frodo’s wee shoulders. I feel like my own face mirrored Gandalf’s expression. Ian McKellan knocked this small but powerful moment right outta the ballpark.

Of course, the other character permanently affected by the journey is Boromir, and since I knew what to expect, his arc also meant more this time. Particularly the scene with Galadriel, as she apparently gives him a bit of a vision (of Gondor’s grim future? Of his own?). Sean Bean’s sudden gasp/sob of pain was eerily effective and almost difficult to watch since Boromir’s heading for such a grisly death.

Other moments that stood out more: Gandalf’s dismissive, irritated reactions to Pippin (in light of their relationship in ROTK and Pippin’s growth as a character); Boromir’s determination to bring the ring back to Gondor (much like his brother’s in TTT); Frodo’s stabbing (since it only later becomes clear how badly this wound will bother him); Elrond’s behavior toward Aragorn (now that I understand their relationship); and the initial teasing scenes of Gollum, considering how much we’ll be learning about his character in TTT and ROTK.

Some observations/questions that cropped up:

  • One nitpicky thing: I don’t think Jackson did quite right was the hobbits’ size in relation to their animals. Seems like the cows and chickens all looked correctly proportioned next to the hobbits, but surely they should’ve been much bigger? Unless these are special, hobbit-sized creatures.

  • Other nitpick. So there are different names for Earth and the oceans and eras and so on, but when it comes to months, Gandalf can still tell Frodo “oh it’s October _th, to be exact.” October? They couldn’t come up with new months not based on a Latin naming convention that actually is only relevant in a world with Caesar in it?

  • Why does Galadriel call Aragorn “Elessar”? This guy has an awful lot of aliases.

  • What exactly does Gimli (and presumably the rest of the dwarves) have against the elves?

  • Is it me or should Sam and Frodo not know that Boromir is dead, much less how he died?

To conclude, I got so much more out of this viewing, it’s like a different picture entirely. This time, without feeling like I had to spend half the time translating the dialogue into English, I could feast my eyes on the gorgeous cinematography, and pay extra attention to the performances and characterizations, and really dive into the universe. It’s a stunning work that keeps improving on further scrutiny. Thanks to everyone here for giving me a much deeper understanding and appreciation for its art.
Can’t wait to dive into the other two films, since unlike FOTR, the two Extended Editions will definitely be new to me.

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IIRC (and I’m sure someone will come along and correct me), but the “English” names of the months are an Anglicization of the terms used in the Shire. The rest of Middle-Earth had other names for them.

He does; you’ll see, as you read the books, that this is pretty common in Tolkien. “Elessar” is “elfstone” in Quenya, and it eventually becomes the name that Aragorn uses when he becomes king.

There’s a number of reasons for bad blood between the dwarves and elves, but one in particular comes up in The Hobbit: (spoiler-blocked just in case)

Gimli’s father, Gloin, along with the rest of the dwarves in Thorin’s company, was imprisoned for some time by Legolas’s father, Thranduil.

You’re right, they shouldn’t know for certain (since they left the Fellowship just before the orc attack at Amon Hen), but Frodo knows that Boromir had gone around the bend, and so, his death probably wouldn’t come as a shock to them.

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I have to go back to work tomorrow, so a quick response, to only a couple of points & then I’ll let the experts step in:

  • the names of months and days is addressed in Appendix D, after the end of the Return of the King. The conceit is that the speech of the Hobbits and much of Middle Earth’s inhabitants (“Westron”) has been transliterated to English; English-ised, if you will. The original names of months and weekdays are given in this appendix and have nothing to do with Latin or Caesar. Dear Prof. T. thought of just about everything.
    -last comment for the day - No, Frodo & Sam did not know of Boromir’s death until they heard about it from Faramir. In fact for much of the main part of the story, many of the characters have no idea what has happened to the others. Sometimes the reader knows more than they, sometimes not. This storytelling technique adds to the tension in the narrative. And probably also reflects the limits of pre-industrial communications.

Well its late, and I’m not being very clear. Goodnight noobies and fellow geeks.

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The hobbit calendar had an interesting feature: one day of every year (and the leap day, when necessary) did not belong to any week. That meant that every year consisted of 52 weeks with named days, and one (or two) days known only by their titles (“Midyear’s Day” and “Overlithe”), so, for instance, January 1 fell on the same day of the week every year and any written calendar could be used as a perpetual calendar.

One consequence was that no month began on Friday, so a figure of speech humorously meaning “never” was “on Friday the first” (in full, “Friday the First of Summerfilth”, a month that did not exist either).

Yes, the Prof had way too much time on his hands. :smiley:

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Does it have 13 months of 28 days each? If so, then I never knew that calendar came from Tolkien.

Completely off topic, but do you realize how hard it is for me to pronounce his name TOL-keen in my head? I’m pretty sure it was one of the links given here that offered the proper pronunciation (as given by his kin). I’m pretty sure nobody even used it in the DVD extras (except maybe Christopher Lee).

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No. 12 30-day months, two Yule-days that were days of the week but not days of the month, two Lithe-days ditto, Mid-year’s Day that was neither: 365 in total. In leap-years, Overlithe followed Mid-year’s Day and, again, was part of neither week nor month. cite

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It’s not true of the Silmarillion contradicts LOTR to any significant degree. It is essentially the history of the world and the back story to LOTR. It is the world he created here in such loving depth and sophistication that makes LOTR so powerful an imagined world.

I’ve just finished it on audio book and it is magnificent - read with power by Martin Shaw.

Don’t confuse it with the History series - those do tend to be earlier and contradictory and in the Guide to Middle Earth (too lazy to look up who did it) the author tells of how he excludes those sources.

If you are captured by Middle Earth then your appreciation will be deepened by knowledge of the great tragedies and epic struggles leading up to it.

I really recommend the audio version - just let the majesty of the language roll over you. It’s like the King James Bible, but more consistent and humane.

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Elves and dwarves have a long history of not liking each other, from time to time. It is in large part related to the fact that the dwarves have such a love of and fascination for things, especially things made of metal and jewels, and the accumulation of wealth, and prefer to live underground, all of which are not things the elves prefer at all. It’s also got a bit of the mortal v immortal thing going on, because although dwarves have long lives (sometimes a couple hundred years), they do eventually die, and I don’t think the elves have ever quite understood mortal races and the impact mortality has on ones thinking processes. I mean, think about it. Galadriel, for example, has lived through almost all of the First Age (and I don’t think it’s EVER been specified how long THAT was, but certainly as long as either of the next two ages), all of the Second Age (almost 3000 years), and all of the Third Age (just over 3000 years). So she’s something like 9000 years old, or older! I’m shocked she even keeps the NAMES of mortals straight. :eek:

There are also some stories in The Silmarillion that establish backstory for the general feeling of dislike between the elves and the dwarves. But that general dislike didn’t always play out: for example, the elves who lived in Eregion (just west of Moria) had a good partnership with Durin’s folk in Moria.