Okay this is specifically about the hearings themselves, but in a bigger context. In another thread I made the argument that not all registered Republicans are the same- not as monolithic as they seem to us (enlightened folk). And then . . .
Last week I had a two hour conversation with a close associate whom I have known for more than a decade and a half and with whom we have been very close. My household and his have spent holidays together all of that time, and I mean almost all of the holidays though the entire calendar year. In the course of conversation, I asked him to please watch one whole Hearing and he told me that he listened to twelve or fifteen minutes on a local (conservative) news radio program during his drive to work and dismissed the entire thing as: Partisan, Hearsay, Uncontested Testimony, Editorializing, Etc., Etc., Etc. In other words every right wing talking point without hesitation or consideration.
This guy is sincere and compassionate, a retired pastor who went back to school in his forties and got a law degree. He is smart and a good father with a built-in right-wing leaning conservatism at the cellular level- just a part of him. He told me that he and his wife never liked Trump, but in 2016 they held their nose and voted for him because the alternative was NOT an option (and hey, I was guilty there too- I could not bring myself to vote for either of them, only voted down ticket races).
I tried to really sell him the idea that watching a whole hearing (not the Cassidy Hutchinson one though) might change his mind. I asked him to watch either the DOJ officials or the State officials (he used to like Rusty Bowers) from Georgia and here. NO, no, no-way, not gonna happen - they are a partisan . . . . And I am thinking not you dude! The girlfriend and her family, the neighbors, my uncle and his issue and a dozen others, sure- they are all reactionary and shallow, but you are educated and informed!
We moved to discussing Row and Alito, even more right wing talking points! I made some factual arguments and then told him that my problem with it is that it really boils down to religious extremists imposing their moral code and moral will upon the entire nation. It got so heated that his wife got on the phone and held an intervention and we have not spoken since. I am guessing that since trump has left DC, and lost access to Twitter, he and his have swung right back to where they were before-- or even further (he sure does not see nuance like once did!).
The thing is, if we can’t reach this moderate right guy (well he was moderate just recently), we can’t move anyone!!! This is going to get worse in 2024 and they will be better prepared. The other people I mentioned (everyone I personally know apart from the old district 24 and 26 Democrats) are way, way out of range. Most of my neighbors could watch every minute of every hearing and dismiss everything as “fake”, but this guy??? So the most reasonable Republican I know will not even bother to watch the damn things.
I am expecting too much from the committee, but this event has really discouraged me.
I look in at a RWNJ message board from time to time, and I’ve looked in more often as the hearings continue. Most of the posters there are actually proud that they’re not watching–they’re not falling for that Lib’rul one-sided kangaroo court, without cross-examination. Nope, nosiree, no way are they falling for that traitor Liz Cheney’s, and the rest of the committee members’, lies; and hand-picked former Republican witnesses whom they claim are traitors against the United States and Donald Trump.
As I said in the “follow-along” thread, it’s “drip, drip, drip.” The more evidence is produced, the more the more moderate Republicans question. Or should question; some never will. At any rate, if all this testimony raises doubts in any moderate Republicans’ minds, or those of the undecided, then the committee is doing its job.
Yeah, that’s how I see it — he’s trying to thread a very small needle. He personally approves of and supports what the J6 committee is trying to do, but he also knows that saying so openly would be suicidal in terms of his future as a GOP politician. (Insanity.) So he’s maintaining what might be called a slightly-bent arm’s-length distance from the committee, indirectly participating through proxies while declining to appear himself. So far, the committee has accepted this because it hasn’t impeded their work. We’ll see whether this persists if/when things escalate.
He ought to realise that he doesn’t HAVE a future as a politician.
Anyone who likes Trump will hate Pence because he betrayed Trump and the country and allowed Biden to win in a fraudulent election
Anyone that doesn’t like Trump will also dislike Mike Pence for siding with Trump for so long. Just because he did the right thing at the last minute isn’t going to wash off the stench.
Have you considered that maybe he’s not as delusional as you are? I mean, sure, he’s a nutball, but you’re the one who ignored all the signs of his commitment to irrational thinking for years on end, and rationalized his insane belief system because you liked the guy personally, shared a few subjects you could talk about, maybe even because you were lonely and welcomed his friendship when you should have run away like your hair was on fire the first dozen nutty things he said.
I’m afraid the hearings are having little impact on the True Believers. Our local TV station made an informative post on Facebook about the upcoming (at the time) meeting yesterday. It drew these comments:
“Why don’t the (sic) have an investigation on how easy it was to gain access to the capital?”
“Biden just committed treason selling our oil reserve to China to a company his son has ties to but this is more important!!”
“Why don’t you actually do something for the people instead of waste our money?”
“I wish my regular scheduled programming wouldn’t be interrupted with this crap!”
“Waste of time. How about going after the Bidens whole corrupt family!”
These hearings contain pearls of truth, but they are being cast unto swine.
The last hearing on prime time next week? I assume they’re holding the big shoe to drop then. My guess is we’ll see a video of Donnie watching the insurrection on television cheering wildly. Maybe they taped him repeatedly refusing to send in the NG.
I heard one of the talking heads on tv saying that DOJ was surprised to hear Hutchinson’s testimony. Why is that? The DOJ has more power and more resources than the committee, how is the committee outperforming them?
Elections are chosen on the back of the few willing to create a ballot with a mixed party result. These people do the research and stick by their guns against partisan rage and enticement.
The hearings need to convince the ones like this to vote for genuinely and obviously crooked and lunatic Democrats, running in swing states, against reasonable and honest Republicans, in order to prevent the Republican party from gaining the majority - all in the hope that the Democrats will introduce reform, to clean up the system, rather than use that power to let illegal immigrants vote and try to create similar machinery as Trump’s handlers were trying to set up.
In general, I’d say that the Libertarian party is likely to do well the next few rounds - and especially if they can put forward somewhat normal folks.
I’d say the committee has to lay out the facts in front of the American people and move the needle of public opinion. If we still have say 25% of the people thinking that Don the Con is infallible and that all who oppose him are anti-American, then prosecuting him is going to lead to blood in the streets. If the MAGA crowd is unmoved and Republicans still need to cater to them in order to win a primary, then we still have a long way to go.
“First Libertarian President blamed for inflation, COVID-24+, gasoline prices, melting of glaciers, increased male-pattern baldness, and lots of fleas on dogs. Approval rating lowest ever recorded for a sitting president.”
Of course he won’t watch them. He’s terrified that he might be exposed to factual information, and this will solidify the obvious conclusion that he was sucked in by a con man, and has been a sucker.
Nobody wants to learn that they are a sucker and voted in an insane mob boss who tried to overthrow the government; the obvious solution to this is to bury his head in the sand and ignore the facts.
Certainly true. But by “do surprisingly well”, I didn’t mean to imply winning I should clarify. Just a higher vote percentage than you’d expect from history.
I will respond to the most recent first so I know where I started, there are usually twenty replies before I can explain myself.
I know that person well, those are the ones who really do drive me nuts. But this guy genuinely was more receptive, more reasonable just recently. He HATES Trump and despises what that crowd has done to his party. But unlike me, his religious devotion (I was more than happy to give that up too) just does not allow him to consider certain things. He has been completely brain washed with regard to Abortion = Murder! He himself was adopted and realizes he could have been aborted himself just as easily. He does not have an overwhelming hatred for immigrants legal or not, but school prayer is a thing to him. Here is an example of what I mean- years ago, maybe more than a decade ago, I told him I did not want to participate in meal time prayers. I explained that holding hands and pretending to go along seemed dishonest, but that I did not mind if him and his prayed, and certainly my household was in agreement with his views- not mine. That led to a whole logistic nightmare but I insisted and had to explain to his wife that she really did not want to pray with unbelievers like me. My own family was way more angry at me for causing the stink than he was, he accepted it with good grace. (I would occasionally participate if his autistic step son was there because it upset him and I did not want to be so “correct” as to hurt an innocent bystander. Everyone else understood the situation and appreciated the compromise.)
The former (or nearly former- who keeps reappearing) girlfriend and her Republican Party officer family are squarely in the camp you mention, so are many of my neighbors including an uncle to whom I was once very close. In his case, it is not fear of being wrong, as I said he hates Trump- it is something else.
A genuine criminal trial, and the evidence required there will be plenty to make Trump a pariah. There will only be a very few (less than 15% in my estimation) who will still insist the evidence is manufactured by then. The rest will have moved on the DiSantis or whomever and ask who ever supported that guy?? (And I think they will be sincere: sure I voted for him once . . . but I never supported him.)
My friend is far from a MAGA (and we can’t even reach him!) He is a sincerely faithful Christian believer who has be tricked into believing Republicans are the moral “Christian” party.
I assure you that my friend is not a nutball, although I do strongly disagree with many of his views. Twenty years ago I held similar views and I really did not respect those who shunned me when I came to different conclusions than they did.
My friend is smart, he is well educated, he is contemplative and accepting of different points of view. He does not insist that I agree with him in order to be friendly toward me, and I try to be as open minded and accepting of him. Our relationship does not just affect the two of us, there five members of his family, many of them who still call me uncle despite having no genuine family connection. My household was three including me and when my mother died they were best and strongest source of support. They championed my kids education and helped him when he treated some of their family with a good deal of disrespect.
I certainly have disagreed with his religious beliefs in the past – but I have never seen him be hypocritical or judgmental, only loving and supporting. While I may not belong to his tribe, I have always been welcome in his family. He has done thousands of dollars worth of legal services for us and always pro bono. What is more, him and his wife changed their own estate documents based upon input from me when I pointed out some things they had missed concerning their children’s future (and attitudes toward each other). When their eldest daughter went away to college a few years ago, they provided her with an IUD much to my surprise!!! And that acceptance of reality despite their strong religious leanings earned my respect.
Thank you for your suggestion, but I am going to go ahead and trust my judgement in this case. Feel free to judge my friend by a brief summary, and me too.
Yes!
This is actually a reply to your post over there, I tried to link it for half an hour last night and finally gave up, thank you for finding it and continuing the conversation. I am associated with many staunch, hard-core Republicans and even have a few genuinely nutball distant relatives who can never be reached, but I was shocked by the response of this one guy. Even his wife is a bit extreme for my tastes. (My nutball distant relatives moved to West Virginia twenty years ago because Arizona was becoming too liberal for them!! Can you even imagine??)
His comments have caused me to judge the hearings on a less friendly scale. Even to drip, drip, drip some reality into their lives they have to break through. How to say this – there are neither stalagmites nor [the other variety] outside the cave and right now- even once open-minded conservatives are outside the cave.
I really wish the hearings were either bulletproof with regard to facts and evidence – or engaging enough to welcome in those who oppose, ideally both. If they were bulletproof- then they could convince any sincere person if they were forced to watch them. If they had any broader appeal that could help too (but would almost have be less . . . . convincing.
Busy day so will not be back for hours, thank you all for the comments.
But there is no ‘bulletproof’ for those folks. To illustrate: when a MAGAt claimed Trump was great because he’d given us the Veteran’s Choice Act I pointed out that it was actually Obama who had signed that act in 2014. A simple, bulletproof fact, wouldn’t you say? But his response was “Well, I didn’t hear about it til Trump, he’s the one who made it happen”. You will never reach MAGAts with logic, rational thought, or facts. Everything is filtered through their lens of self-interest & self-absorption. It is endlessly frustrating to see Democrats refuse to accept this. There is absolutely nothing Democrats can do or say that will flip MAGAts to vote their way in November, or ever.
I thought the point of these hearings was to put together a cohesive, factual, timeline of what happened, when, and who was involved. It’s for history, not November. So far, they’ve done a good job. The idea that they should present the ‘other side’ – which is, what… ‘there were justifications for trying to overturn the election through violence and illegal machinations’? … is ludicrous.