What is the etymology of “Namae” meaning “name”? This question has been bugging me for years, and I don’t have any good Jappanese etymolgy references to answer it. I know that “arigato” is derived from the Portuguese “obligado,” and that “torii” (gate) and “door” share a common Indoeuropean root. This, along with the superficial similarity, makes me wonder if there is a western connection. If so, is it direct from Europe or from an ancient common root? I am especially suspicious because the first character in “namae” with meaning “name or reputation” seems to be pronounced “na” only in that one combination. Otherwise, it is pronounced “mei” or “myo.” Also, does anyone know of a good Japanese etymology reference that is mostly in English?
Anata-no namai-wa nan des ka? That’s all the Japanese I remember, and the ka means “?” so it shouldn’t be there.
Not to steal the thread, but I remember reading in Shogun that “mama” (as in “mama-san”) doesn’t mean mother – it means exactly what we generally think “mama-san” means. 
Should I have put this over in the prostitution thread?
Absolutely terrible Japanese. To call a stranger “anata” is likely to cause offense. The phrase is:
“o-namae wa nan desu ka” or more commonly, shortened to “o-namae wa?” (yes, the question mark belongs there to indicate it is a question, pronounced with a rising accent).
The “o-namae” is an “honorrific” and would not not be applied to oneself, so the namae being referred to here is obviously the stranger, not oneself.
“arigatou” is not derived from “obligado.” These sorts of linguistic coincidences are quite common. There is no linguistic connection between any of these items you associated together.
To take one of your examples, how could there be a indo-european connection between torii and door, when there was no contact between indo languages and Asian languages until many centuries after the word torii was in common use?
A good rule of thumb is if the word is commonly written in katakana (a phonetic alphabet), it is foreign. Words written in Kanji (Chinese writing) or Hiragana (another phonetic alphabet) are generally local.
namaeis generally written with two kanji. The first of which (na) means name, and the second (mae) means front or before.
Although my dictionary lists it, I can’t recal ever hearing naby itself meaning name.
My bet is that namaeis a local term, not an adopted one. Another word that sounds similar, but (I think) is a local term: empitsu(Em-pee-tzoo), meaning pencil.
The only other Japanese phrase I remeber from High School:
gojira ha tokyo wo tabeteimasu!(Gozilla is eating Tokyo)
[QUOTE]
“arigatou” is not derived from “obligado.” These sorts of linguistic coincidences are quite common. There is no linguistic connection between any of these items you associated together.
To take one of your examples, how could there be a indo-european connection between torii and door, when there was no contact between indo languages and Asian languages until many centuries after the word torii was in common use?QUOTE]
I would be interested to know why you believe that there is no connection between these words. I confess, I don’t recall any cites for these, but I will look for them. As for the possibility of a connection, please remember that the Buddhist pantheon derive from the Hindu. Once again, I don’t have convenient cites offhand, but another example of Indic influence is shogi, which comes form the same parent as chess.
As for the influence of the Portuguese in Japan, remember that Portugal was for many years the only European country allowed to trade with Japan. Portuguese missionaries had substancial influence.
Finally, the use of katakana for loanwords is a relatively recent phenomenon, dating, I believe, to the Meiji restoration. Any loanwords weel established previous to this point would be written in Kanji, as is the case with torii, or katakana, as is the case with arigato.
It may be a loanword from Sanskrit nâma, ‘name’. The Sanskrit word is a really obvious Indo-European cognate of English name.
Ignatzmouse, re: your question about why I don’t think arigatou is related to obligado, from the sci.lang.japan FAQ:
"7.9.1. Is arigatou related to Portuguese “obrigado”?
No. Arigatou' comes from the conjugation of arigatai’, which means “having difficulties”, with the polite verb `gozaimasu’…"
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/arigatou.html
The verb arigatai far predates the arrival of the Portugese (or for that matter, any westerners) in Japan.
FYI, the use of katakana for loanwords only goes back about 50 years. Prewar texts used katakana almost exclusively (not counting the kanji), katakana was not used for gairaigo at that time. In earlier eras, kanji was commonly used for gairaigo. For example, there is a 3-kanji representation of “tabako” (tobacco), and this word (and smoking) were introduced to Japan by the Dutch about 450 years ago.
Sorry 
I guess I was speaking in the familiar!
Still, it hurts to thing that the only Japanese phrase I remember (other than quoting from Mr. Roboto) was wrong! I’m pleased you knew what I was asking though,
Am I correct in thinking the “u” in “desu” is more or less silent?
Well, it’s close enough, and understandable. If you used it in your “familiar” form, it would probably receive an “nihongo ga o-jouzu desu ne!” response (your Japanese is Excellent!). Of course, that is just a formality of a response anyway.
You are correct, the U in desu is more or less silent. The only time you hear it is when someone is trying to be overly formal and is “overpronouncing” the word.
The U is voiceless (and unrounded). It is never nonexistent, and always has the properties of a U in spoken Japanese, except possibly that it is inaudible (but since when does that have to do with anything, right?). Voiceless vowels are always hard to catch (and unroundedness makes a U less U-like), but “desu” is always said with two syllables.
Chas.E,
Thanks for the cite on arigato. As I checked my references for cites, I came to a similar conclusion. Sansom lists early Portuguese loanwords such as pan and karuta, but not arigato. Ruth Benedict gives your definition of arigato in the chrystantmum & sword. I still can’t remember where I read the obligado bit. I think I may have heard it from Jay Gluck, but it is not in his rambling tome.
I also can’t find reference for torii, but I still think this one may be accurate. Do you know of references to the word (not the structure)before 552? Indic influence dates back at least to that year, when Korea sent a Buddha figure which purportedly now lies under Zenkoji. Most references seem to share that approximate date for initial Indic influences. Your comment that there was no contact between Indic languages and Asian languages before the use of the word torii in Japan seems strange. Indian influences came very early to China.
By the way, there is a linguist who believes that Japanese comes from Tamil.
This seems like a good opportunity to ask a separate but related question: I read somewhere that the Japanese dish tempura (fried vegetables and fish) is derived from a Portuguese word for meatless Friday, pronounced something like “temporas”.
BTW, the Japanese seem to have a real fetish or something about adopting foreign words, to the extent that older people can’t understand what younger people are saying–yet for the most part, they can’t (or won’t) learn foreign languages for shit–even though they have to take something like six years of English in middle school or high school. I’ve even been told that people who do learn foreign languages very well tend to hide it, because otherwise they’ll be viewed as somehow tainted and not fully Japanese anymore.
Zarathustra
Yeah, I’m familiar with all sorts of crackpot theories about the Japanese language. There is even one guy who claims that the Japanese are the Lost Tribe of the Jews and that Jesus is buried in Japan.
There are no records of ANY Japanese history dating before the 7th century, it’s all lumped together into the category of “prehistory.” Shinto (and the use of torii, presumably) was already well established by the 6th century. I’ll check into this further, the earliest citation of torii I can find from any authoritative source only goes back to early Heian era (8th century).