Jedi dies like a punk (spoiler, and rant)

The BBQ Pit
61

As I understand it, the objection is not to the pathos, but to the fact that the method of generating pathos blatantly contradicted what we were previously shown about the characters. If it is established that, for example, exposure to something is flat-out, fall-over-dead lethal, then the character so exposed should not get a lengthy death scene when the substance starts flowing. That is a sign of lazy writing.

Part of the mythos of Jedi is that they can’t be shot in the back that easily. There was no reason for it to happen that way, as opposed to a way that generated pathos and was consistent with the rest of the story, other than Lucas’s inability to write.

62

How is it less effective statement about Palpatine? He gives the order, the Stormtroopers do their thing. Only this time the Jedi aren’t crippled, but are still defeated by the sheer number of foes.

I would rather see the Jedi lose, “honestly”, than have them crippled, in order for the Stormtroopers to do their thing. Sure some of the Jedi would be caught unaware, but the majority of them? It’s bad writing.

If we were talking the Jedi from the Clone Wars cartoon, I would agreed, that the way played out was the way to go; but we’re not. These Jedi are distinctly mortal and any mortal foe can be beaten if there’s enough bodies tossed at him.

There were plenty of Stormtroppers, to be tossed.

63

That’s emphatically not what the OP argued, but it’s a worthwhile consideration. While I’m not as versed in the issues as some of you guys, only having seen the movies, it certainly was not hard for me to believe. Their troops got the order and instantly shot them in the back - while Jedi are powerful, they’re not omnipotent and being shot in the back from very close range would give virtually no time to react, no matter how could they are at fighting. I dunno - I bought it.

64

Sith don’t fight like men. Sith are assasins. The Jedi were assasinated. They didn’t see it coming because they weren’t looking–everybody that falls in battle were focused on the battle at hand. It never occurred to them that they should to be watching their backs when there were thousands of droids in front of them. The clones were genetically engineered for loyalty. Why be suspicious of them? Yoda survives because he is not actively engaged in battle at the time the assasination attempt occurrs and has sensed the betrayal of the other Jedi. Plus, he’s Yoda.

I understand bitching about the film’s weaknesses, but c’mon! This is one of the most effective sequences in the movie! When Lucas screws up, we bitch. When he does something right, we bitch.

65

First off, the Jedi have negative reaction times. They can sense things before they happen. We have seen Jedi block blaster fire they didn’t see coming, and we’ve seen them react to threats they didn’t know were there. You can’t get the drop on a clarivoyant, and yet, this is exactly what happened, in case after case. If the Jedi could die this easily, than snipers should have slain the Jedi ages ago.

I personally think it would have been much more powerful and meaningful if the montage showed some Jedi taking down the ambushing squadrons, radioing in that their clones have gone crazy, and then being overshadowed by a big-ass ship full of more clones.

66

[Verbal Kint, Stormtrooper]
“How do you shoot Yoda in the back?”
<holds up crippled hand>
“What if you miss?”
[/VK,S]

67

Wow, I never thought I would get such reaction. It also seems that many people disagree with me, but hey since I’m no Jedi, I don’t have to go down like a punk.

Was the sequence effective story telling? I don't think so, but since it seems to have provoked such reaction, negative (those, like me who hated it) and positive (those who felt it conveyed Lucas' point about the Emperor), I would have to say that it had its place in the story. I will even concede that seeing characters I had come to know die, meant that for me this montage was particularly heart tugging. I will have to yield on this one.

Did the Jedi die to easily? Other explanations aside (loss of connection to the force, surprise) I still have a hard time believing that in one generation, the clones are able to take out Jedi, and twenty years later the new bunch get their arses handed to them by ewoks.

Heroic Deaths. I am a storyteller, and a Librarian, I read different types of stories all the time. The type of story that Lucas is trying to tell here makes the heroes larger than life. Heroes like the Jedi, do things that you and I could never do. If you have established the character as a hero, then they get to go out as a hero, not as a redshirt.

Extended Universe vs. Movies. Lucas himself has said the EU is cannon unless contradicted by the movies, indeed the fact that this character was brought into the movie at all, shows that Lucas is willing to acknowledge the EU. Another example is General Grievous coughing for the whole movie due to wounds received in the Clone Wars cartoons. So to say that the backstory of a character brought in from the EU has nothing to do with her fate in the movies, really ignores the fact that by Lucas’ admission and actions the EU DOES exist alongside the movies. Hey, Lucas can do what he wants with his Universe, but I don’t always have to like it, and in this case, I don’t!

Aayla may not be dead. Put me in the “she’s toast” column. However if Greedo can suddenly shoot first, who knows what will happen in future edits. The idea that Lucas might make her a major character in the TV series dosen’t seem right. Lucas himself will direct the first season, and I can’t see him centering the series around a strong female character. Even if he did, I hope he would have the sense to cast an actual actress rather than the production assistant he put into makeup for the movies. No offense to Ms Allen, but she can’t even do getting shot in the back well. :wink:

Sweetums

68

The weird part is him casting Keisha Castle-Hughes - youngest Academy Award nominee ever - and cutting all her lines (or perhaps not giving her any to start with. I don’t know.)

How fucking stupid can he be at casting movies? I mean, Hayden Christensen was bad enough - but not giving any lines to the best actress in your movie?

69

Wow i can’t believe people are complaining about one of the few good parts of this movie. Lets see:

  • About Vader not actually “hunting down” the Jedi, thats just silly. It was mentioned in AOTC that there where over a thousand Jedi, we did not see them all die. I’m sure it took years after the events of ROTS for Vader to hunt them all down.

  • Most of the Jedis at the big battle in Attack of the Clones DIED, and the survivors would have been just as dead if Yoda hadn’t shown up. There is no way even the most powerfull Jedi master could block more than one or two shots when that many clones/droids are shooting at them.

  • Jedis “dying like punks” was the whole freaking point of the scene. Its not lazy storytelling or lazy writing, its one of the few times Lucas actually PASSED UP a chance to show more lightsaber ass kicking fan wanking action in favor of actually telling a good story. And of course people bitch about it too, incredible.

-I don’t see what the big deal is about them not sensing that their troops had turned against them. You can use any explanation you want here and pretty much they all make sense, they where weakened in the force, they had no reason at all to expect it after ten years of leading their troops, it was completely out of character for clone troops bred for loyalty, etc. Even so Ki Adi Mundi still managed to sense something and turned around in time to block a couple shots, what more do you want?

70

I’ll add one more: the clone army was created specifically to destroy the Jedi. Not the separtists, not the droids, but the Jedi. That’s the only reason it exsists at all. And I’m not just talking about the army as an organization, but every single individual in that army exsists for no other reason but to kill the Jedis in ambush. Furthermore, they were created by a man who is an expert in hiding his thoughts and intentions from the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. Surely, he knows a few tricks for even a non-Force sensitive to disguise their treachery from a Jedi, and has passed those on to his specially-tailored anti-Jedi assassins.

I have to admit, as much as I hated the last two movies, and as much as I dreaded how Lucas would mishandle the betrayal and destruction of the Jedi, he absolutely nailed this moment in the films.

71

I haven’t seen ROTS yet and I’m probably just asking to be flamed, but from what I’ve read, the idea of the Jedi being shot in the back doesn’t bother me at all. If the Clones are supposed to be completely loyal to the state(read: Palpaltine), and we know palpatine would find shooting them in the back most…effiecent, and no doubt, ironic.

And as others have pointed out, the last thing most people expect is for their army buddies to frag them in the back, pariticulary if you are used to such buddies being completely loyal. If you consider your back to be covered, and your attention focused on what’s ahead, you may feel like your in danger, but that doesn’t mean you will realize in time what direction or source it’s coming from, and why suspect the guys who have been following you around with loaded guns for quite a while now, who are supposed to be under your command?

72

Aayla Secura or what ever her name was has never been a character shown within star wars, so if youre upset that your imaginary friend died then make up a different nerd tale in which she was a nasty person deserving of death.

Star wars and nerd star wars are two very different tales. Star wars exists only in GL’s mind, expanded SW is just a means to seperate nerds from there $$$

73

Rick, this is not going to go well.

Oh, and their is possesive, there describes a place.

74

What people are talking about is what I think’s already been mentioned a sort of “spider-sense”, sure Spidey may ignore his “tingling” and get caught unawareness, however his abilities, his reaction time still exist. He doesn’t just get shot in the back, he may get a glancing blow, but he isn’t just laid out…at least not usually.

You now have an “army” of people whose senses should be “tingling”. Yet they ALL seem to ignore it? Wouldn’t the link to the force that they share be screaming, “There’s danger behind you, turn around!”? If most of them felt that, wouldn’t they, turn around? Even if they believe their backs are protected?

I’m not saying they would know the Stormtroopers are the danger, but that there’s something amiss; something that the Stormtroopers can’t handle, hence the “tingling”.

75

I could be mistaken, but it seemed to me that Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura did turn around (or start to at least).

76

But that’s the thing. The Jedi can sense that stuff based on the feelings and emotions of those threatening them. Had the clones felt betrayal at turning on the Jedi, they would have felt that. But the clones had been bred to do this, bred for this moment, and they felt no different shooting at the Jedi than shooting at the droids. Without an emotional change within the clones, the Jedi would have no warning.

77

So then how did Luke, a novice wearing a blindfold “sense” when the training drone was going to shoot at him?

I’m not a Star Wars guy, so bear with me.

78

Unfortunately, I don’t think spectrum’s theory holds water.

I just don’t think that just because Jedi have a certain amount of prescience, it means that they can never be taken by surprise. Which seems to be what many people in this thread want to believe. I don’t think such a theory is supported by the movies, no matter what the EU may say.

79

Good question. Perhaps it has something to do with the semi-sentience of the droids in the Star Wars universe. You could ask the same thing with the battledroids, etc. Given that machines in Star Wars have abilities, personalities and behaviors that are far afield from both those of machines in our world, and the biological creatures in Star Wars, I’d imagine that’s a whole different issue.

Regardless, when Jedi sense a threat from another lifeform, it is based on the emotions emanating from that lifeform through the Force.

Also, as Orual says, Jedi are not omnipotent. Remember, they can only really see into the future with any true clarity when centered, calm and in a state of meditation, none of which is likely during a battle situation.

80

I don’t think anyone’s talking omnipotence, just not a crippling of the character’s abilities. If they have certain abilities, they should have them, even if it means another light-sabre fight. I don’t think it would have hurt the story if some, not all, but some percentage of Jedi “sensed” the Stormtroopers firing and blocked them the way that Ki-Adi Mundi did. They still lose, everyone still dies, but at least they die in within the scope of their characterizations.