[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
By contrast heroin, if you were to knock someone out for the duration of the withdrawal so the psychological effects didn’t magnify it, would just cause symptoms equivalent to a moderate cold.
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Have you ever been through opiate withdrawal? It sucks far more than a “moderate cold.” I can’t even imagine how horrible it would be for someone on heroin, but even for oxycontin it is hell.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
By contrast heroin, if you were to knock someone out for the duration of the withdrawal so the psychological effects didn’t magnify it, would just cause symptoms equivalent to a moderate cold. It’s the psychological stress that is the killer for it and most drugs.
[/QUOTE]
Uh, no. With heroin, you body becomes so used to it that you have tremors, chills, the shits, things like that when you don’t get it- your body loses the ability to function normally without it. When addicts say at some point they need a certain amount just to not have their body go haywire, that’s not an exaggeration. There are tons of shows on cable that show this, so you don’t have to go by anyones word.
And sorry, I know too much about pot and know too many potheads to believe that you can be addicted to it- look at my cite upthread- its less addictive than caffeine. Have you ever seen anyone go into caffeine rehab? Its like sex- you really really like it because it gives you a pleasurable feeling, but its a feeling you can do without if forced, without rehab. Someone who says they can’t live without sex doesn’t really mean the can’t, they means they don’t want to- same with pot. That chick on the show is a joke and a fraud.
I probably smoked pot 300 of the 365 days of 2007 and haven’t since Jan 1 due to factors out of my control and guess what- no problems at all. And I’m not a unique case- I have many friends who get high when they can or when they have it, and when they don’t, no biggie.
[QUOTE=Indygrrl]
Have you ever been through opiate withdrawal? It sucks far more than a “moderate cold.” I can’t even imagine how horrible it would be for someone on heroin, but even for oxycontin it is hell.
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yup. It was the one and only time in my life when I genuinely believed I was dying. Constant shivers, chills, your body manufactures pain in order to get more narcotics, crying all day, sensitive to light and sound, dizzy, brain shiver, pounding headache, sweating. I’d rather have a cold for the rest of my life than go through that again.
[QUOTE=fatgail]
I’m skeptical of this. Early last year I did a cold turkey withdrawal off of Oxycontin, an opiate similar to heroin, and I was told by my doctor that in doing so I had put my body at risk for seizure, stroke or heart attack, even with the Clonidine and Valium I was prescribed to sort of be in a coma throughout the withdrawal. I was taking 400 mgs a day and should have tapered off the dose over a month’s time.
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[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Uh, no. With heroin, you body becomes so used to it that you have tremors, chills, the shits, things like that when you don’t get it- your body loses the ability to function normally without it. When addicts say at some point they need a certain amount just to not have their body go haywire, that’s not an exaggeration. There are tons of shows on cable that show this, so you don’t have to go by anyones word.
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My information came from Dr. Alexander Shulgin ( wikipedia: Alexander Shulgin - Wikipedia ) who taught a class I took on the chemistry of psychoactive drug interactions. According to him ( and I’m quoting roughly from memory here - this was a good twenty+ years ago ), “If you were somehow able to render an otherwise healthy heroin addict unconscious for a period of days while they detoxed, the physically observable symptoms would be about equivalent to what you’d see with a cold - chills, low fever, aches and pain, general malaise.”
[QUOTE=Indygrrl]
Have you ever been through opiate withdrawal? It sucks far more than a “moderate cold.” I can’t even imagine how horrible it would be for someone on heroin, but even for oxycontin it is hell.
[/QUOTE]
I have not, but I have a very close friend who was a junkie and have seen him through withdrawal ( and backsliding ) multiple times.
I’ve done it ( involuntarily, while hospitalized ). Truly horrible headaches.
Same here. Like I said, I think it is about as inoffensive drug as there is out there, less than either alcohol OR tobacco. But addiction isn’t limited to just physical addiction, it subsumes psychological addictions as well. And I know people ( three that I can think of out of a couple hundred I’ve known that have smoked pot ) that have a dependency bad enough to cause them financial hardship on their limited incomes. And they WILL forgo paying their bills to feed that habit.
To me that = addiction.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
My information came from Dr. Alexander Shulgin ( wikipedia: Alexander Shulgin - Wikipedia ) who taught a class I took on the chemistry of psychoactive drug interactions. According to him ( and I’m quoting roughly from memory here - this was a good twenty+ years ago ), “If you were somehow able to render an otherwise healthy heroin addict unconscious for a period of days while they detoxed, the physically observable symptoms would be about equivalent to what you’d see with a cold - chills, low fever, aches and pain, general malaise.”
[/QUOTE]
The point here is that the addict is basically in a coma. So you don’t see them having mental breakdowns, throwing up, crying, screaming, not being able to open their eyes in the sunlight. Everything’s easy if you’re unconscious.
[QUOTE=fatgail]
The point here is that the addict is basically in a coma. So you don’t see them having mental breakdowns, throwing up, crying, screaming, not being able to open their eyes in the sunlight. Everything’s easy if you’re unconscious.
[/QUOTE]
Well, exactly - that’s just my point. The physical symptoms aren’t, taken in isolation, that severe. It’s the psychological reaction - the mental breakdowns, the cravings, that cause the most angst and difficulty.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
Well, exactly - that’s just my point. The physical symptoms aren’t, taken in isolation, that severe. It’s the psychological reaction - the mental breakdowns, the cravings, that cause the most angst and difficulty.
[/QUOTE]
Are those symptoms strictly speaking a psychological reaction, or are they physiological reactions that can’t be expressed because the patient is in a state of enforced unconsciousness? If you try to remove my appendix without anesthetic, I’m going to react pretty differently than I would if you removed it with anesthetic, but that doesn’t mean that all the screaming and thrashing around is just a “psychological” symptom.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Are those symptoms strictly speaking a psychological reaction, or are they physiological reactions that can’t be expressed because the patient is in a state of enforced unconsciousness? If you try to remove my appendix without anesthetic, I’m going to react pretty differently than I would if you removed it with anesthetic, but that doesn’t mean that all the screaming and thrashing around is just a “psychological” symptom.
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Exactly. You don’t feel the worms crawling out of your skin when you’re in a medically induced coma, but it’s a pretty damn severe reaction. As is uncontrollable diahhrea. The simple fact is this. On paper, your research tells you how it’s supposed to be. I’ve had a cold. I’ve had the flu, I’ve given birth vaginally…and i’d rather do all of those concurrently than go through the physical withdrawal of oxycontin again.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
Well, exactly - that’s just my point. The physical symptoms aren’t, taken in isolation, that severe. It’s the psychological reaction - the mental breakdowns, the cravings, that cause the most angst and difficulty.
[/QUOTE]
The physical symptoms are absolutely 100% severe- thats whay makes it such hell. Its the sweats, the fever, the shakes- which yes you wouldn’t see in a coma victim.
[QUOTE=jayjay]
Announcer: Ladies and gentlemen, one of your 2003 California gubernatorial recall election candidates! Let’s hear it for her!
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One of my all-time favorite Onion items was a reply to a What Do You Think? survey on Schwarzenegger’s low approval ratings as governor: “Don’t blame me, I voted for the porn star”.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
Well, exactly - that’s just my point. The physical symptoms aren’t, taken in isolation, that severe. It’s the psychological reaction - the mental breakdowns, the cravings, that cause the most angst and difficulty.
[/QUOTE]
Someone having his chest sawed open for open-heart surgery looks fairly tranquil too, but try it when he’s awake and you’re likely to hear a bit of griping.
I saw a few minutes of this show last night. Recent years have seen a seemingly neverending cascade of reality shows, and each time I’m convinced that this one has to be the absolute bottom of the barrel. There was the Flavor Flav show, then the “I Love New York” spin-off. Then I swore that nothing could ever be worse than the “Tila Tequila” thing. I’m no longer foolish enough to think that they’ve reached a nadir, but with this show I’ve finally hit something like a personal ethical barrier. I could see absolutely nothing entertaining or redeeming about watching a slurring, gibbering Jeff Conaway slouching in a wheelchair, babbling like he’d suffered a severe brain injury, and obliviously showing off his ass-crack to the camera. I don’t mind a good freakshow, but enough is enough.
I understand now that today’s rock bottom will be tomorrow’s cathedral ceiling. There is no bottom of the barrel; it’s just barrels all the way down. It’ll have to go on without me, though. Best of luck.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Are those symptoms strictly speaking a psychological reaction, or are they physiological reactions that can’t be expressed because the patient is in a state of enforced unconsciousness? If you try to remove my appendix without anesthetic, I’m going to react pretty differently than I would if you removed it with anesthetic, but that doesn’t mean that all the screaming and thrashing around is just a “psychological” symptom.
[/QUOTE]
A fair question and one I can’t answer fully - of course the two are going to work in concert, each amplifying the other. I don’t want to have Qadgop or someone else with a medical/biochemisty degree come in here and metaphorically kick me in the nuts for spouting off semi-informed any more on the subject than I already have. So I won’t belabor the point other than to say my junkie friend pretty much agreed with what I’ve written above - the cravings and knowing he could instantaneously end his discomfort at any time with one shot outweighed his physical discomfort, miserable as it was.
But you know what they say about anecdotes and this was from a biologist who used to voluntarily introduce different biting insects to his arm to chart the varying sensations ;)…
My basic point was that most additions have strong psychological dependencies associated with physical addictions and to label someone who has a largely ( or even wholely ) psychological addiction as “weak-minded” is crass and disrespectful.
There are more alcoholics out there than there are people who are physiologically dependent on alcohol ( the two are not synonomous ).
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
My basic point was that most additions have strong psychological dependencies associated with physical addictions and to label someone who has a largely ( or even wholely ) psychological addiction as “weak-minded” is crass and disrespectful.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you on that entirely.
Also, on the fear of a Qadgop-induced nad-kicking.
But the thing is, heroin addicts don’t stay heroin addicts because they’re afraid of withdrawl symptoms. Sure, withdrawl sucks, and could even be fatal for some people. But you can check yourself into a hospital and detox and a month later you’re OK.
But once you’ve gone through withdrawl, you’ll go right back to heroin if the reasons you started using heroin still exist. Whatever those reasons might be. Or you switch to some other substance.
That’s psychological addiction. You remember how good heroin used to make you feel, and one day you start using again. If it was just physical addiction, then once a heroin addict went through detox they’d be no more likely to start taking heroin than anyone else. But that’s not true. Heroin addicts kick heroin lots of times, and go back to heroin lots of times. Why do they go back to heroin after they’ve detoxed?
Sure, physical addiction is one part of it, but psychological addiction is probably 10 times more important. Treat the physical addiction without addressing why the addict turned to heroin in the first place, and 99 times out of 100 the addict will be scoring heroin on their way home from the rehab clinic.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
My basic point was that most additions have strong psychological dependencies associated with physical addictions and to label someone who has a largely ( or even wholely ) psychological addiction as “weak-minded” is crass and disrespectful.
There are more alcoholics out there than there are people who are physiologically dependent on alcohol ( the two are not synonomous ).
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t say that about a crack, meth, cocaine, herion, PCP, alcohol, etc. addict, ever. Only a pot addict- a) from experience with it, b) from knowing dozens of users and c) from the cite above showing legit medical studies that its less addictive than caffeine!
Well, saying that THC is less addictive that caffiene doesn’t mean that it can’t be addictive. Caffiene is addictive, heavy caffiene users suffer physical withdrawl symptoms when they can’t get their drug.
So the fact that pot is a lot less addictive than legal coffee, beer, tobacco and cough syrup doesn’t mean it’s not addictive at all, just that our laws regulating drug use are completely irrational.
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
That’s psychological addiction. You remember how good heroin used to make you feel, and one day you start using again. If it was just physical addiction, then once a heroin addict went through detox they’d be no more likely to start taking heroin than anyone else. But that’s not true. Heroin addicts kick heroin lots of times, and go back to heroin lots of times. Why do they go back to heroin after they’ve detoxed?
[/QUOTE]
This is so true. It’s been almost six months since I ‘kicked’ oxycontin and although I know damn well how it wreaked havoc on my body, my liver, my mind, my marriage, my family…I still wake up sometimes in agony and say “What I wouldn’t do for a 40mg of Oxycontin right now.”
You know what sucks about painkiller addiction? Painkillers work at killing pain.
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
But the thing is, heroin addicts don’t stay heroin addicts because they’re afraid of withdrawl symptoms. Sure, withdrawl sucks, and could even be fatal for some people. But you can check yourself into a hospital and detox and a month later you’re OK.
But once you’ve gone through withdrawl, you’ll go right back to heroin if the reasons you started using heroin still exist. Whatever those reasons might be. Or you switch to some other substance.
That’s psychological addiction. You remember how good heroin used to make you feel, and one day you start using again. If it was just physical addiction, then once a heroin addict went through detox they’d be no more likely to start taking heroin than anyone else. But that’s not true. Heroin addicts kick heroin lots of times, and go back to heroin lots of times. Why do they go back to heroin after they’ve detoxed?
Sure, physical addiction is one part of it, but psychological addiction is probably 10 times more important. Treat the physical addiction without addressing why the addict turned to heroin in the first place, and 99 times out of 100 the addict will be scoring heroin on their way home from the rehab clinic.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Marijuana may be very low on the physiological addiction scale, but clearly, some people do become psychologically dependent on it. Jaimee Foxworth talked about how all she wanted to do was get high, and would blow off auditions in favor of staying home and getting her smoke on. And then there’s continuing to smoke despite the lung problems. People who are not addicted usually stop doing something when it begins to negatively impact their lives in ways like that.
Dr. Drew did seem to be claiming that there is physical withdrawal for pot, so I’ll be very interested to hear if she reports any such symptoms.
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
A fair question and one I can’t answer fully - of course the two are going to work in concert, each amplifying the other. I don’t want to have Qadgop or someone else with a medical/biochemisty degree come in here and metaphorically kick me in the nuts for spouting off semi-informed any more on the subject than I already have. So I won’t belabor the point other than to say my junkie friend pretty much agreed with what I’ve written above - the cravings and knowing he could instantaneously end his discomfort at any time with one shot outweighed his physical discomfort, miserable as it was.
But you know what they say about anecdotes and this was from a biologist who used to voluntarily introduce different biting insects to his arm to chart the varying sensations ;)…
My basic point was that most additions have strong psychological dependencies associated with physical addictions and to label someone who has a largely ( or even wholely ) psychological addiction as “weak-minded” is crass and disrespectful.
There are more alcoholics out there than there are people who are physiologically dependent on alcohol ( the two are not synonomous ).
[/QUOTE]
Interesting you mention him, as not only is he a doctor, I believe he also has overcome opiate addiction. Some kind of addiction, at least - I remember him posting about it in the past. (Unless I’m completely wrong, in which case, mea culpa.)