Jehovah's Witnesses, please fight my ignorance

My friend has experienced this. He and his wife had marital problems a few years ago, and he left. He was no longer aloud to enter his home or the church, he was no longer welcome at his parent’s house, and he was expected to wait in the car when picking up his children for visits. His mother refused to speak with him even by phone, his estranged wife began a successful campaign to turn his teenage daughter against him, and all former members of his large church would turn their backs on him when he met them in the grocery store, at gas stations, the mall- whenever their paths would cross. Because the church encourages segregation from the “worldly” people (meaning: everyone outside the JW faith) he had not a single friend to speak with. His only human contact outside of work was a once per week visit with his young son. After six long, dark months of loneliness, depression, thoughts of suicide, and alcohol abuse, he returned to the church. When I ask why he returned to the place that condoned such contemptible treatment, he defends the church vehemently, and explained that the shunning procedure was a necessary means of forcing an apostate’s return to the church. He also swears by the separation of JW members and world people, and feels strongly that the JW members need to be protected from the world when possible- so most of his fellow parishioners home school their children. His church also discourages members from attending college, and female members are discouraged from pursuing professional careers. It is implied (though not stated in print, as far as I know) that only men are strong enough to work a full time job and maintain a sense of detachment from the world people.

He still ashamedly complains of unhappiness in his marriage, but is once again a member in good standing of the JW church. He confesses feelings of bitterness, anger, and feelings of spiritual bankruptcy. Of course, he is not supposed to converse with me at all outside of casual pleasantries, so I feel lucky that he feels comfortable enough to confide in me. I am very careful to say nothing but encouraging and reassuring words. My heart has been breaking for him for years, but if the alternative to the church is total isolation, scorn and contempt, he is probably better off with the church.

raindog, I noted that you have offered to provide factual information about the JW faith to share, and I apologize if you are tasked with correcting any of my information. Several duties at my job require both a male and female staff member present, and I am stuck in a car with my JW friend for hours long road trips to transport kids in state custody. As my friend’s faith is a source of inner turmoil as well as a fact of his existence, we talk about little else. I have watched him struggle mightily, and have felt largely helpless when attempting to find comforting words.

Not quite naked, but…

Your posts in this thread seem to be ill-informed at best.

I would be interested in knowing if you have used this translation. I’d also like to know in just what ways the NWT “backs them up” in a way that another translation wouldn’t/couldn’t.

JWs use a translation called “The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.”

However, JWs are not forbidden to use other translations, and in fact many have them. I own 13 different translations, 2 interlinears and a comprehensive concordance. JW literature often cites other translations, and it is common for other translations to be quoted in public discourses.

The biggest difference between the NWT and other bibles is the use of God’s name, Jehovah. In many translations God’s name is rendered “God”, “Lord”, or “Lord God”, usually in small caps. In those translations, the use of “Lord” etc is usually a replacement for the tetragrammaton which is what appeared in the original text.

The NWT renders the tetragrammaton as “Jehovah.” JWs believe—and would be pleased to show you in *your *bible—that there is overwhelming evidence that the Jews, and later the Jewish Christians, used God’s name. It’s not just that they used it, but were encouraged, and even required to use God’s name.

They further believe that the origin of removing God’s name from both the bible translations and the spoken word is 2nd and 3rd century superstitions that have no biblical basis. The NWT restores God’s name to it’s accurate rendering in the original text, and how it was used by Jews and Christian Jews alike.

Certainly among bible scholars there is much study as to accurate renderings of the original languages. Some translations are considered quite good, and others suspect. Often this an arcane field of study, and considers nuance and technical linguistic interpretations. In that community, these distinctions are important.

But for the common man? Read the 23rd Psalm (you know, “though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death…” )Read the Sermon on the Mount at Matt 5. Read the “Lord’s Prayer” at Matt 6:9 Read Moses at Mt Sinai. Read the account of Job and God speaking at Job 38. (iirc…)

If you compare these accounts side by side in different translations you’ll find that most of the major translations (and there a couple dozen) say in substance the same things. Try it for yourself. You’ll find that most major translations do a credible job of conveying the thoughts of the author, and differ in nuance, rather than in substance. (in most instances)

It is true that some are better than others, but the average person is not qualified to know the distinctions. I routinely have asked people who have made comments like simster to show me these differences. I’ve yet to meet someone who could finish.

FTR

  1. The use of Jehovah is the biggest difference the NWT offers vis a vis other translations.
  2. JWs, and JW literature make use of other translations, quoting them in both literature and public discourse. Many JWs have other translations and use them.
  3. JWs would endeavor to study the bible with someone with a different translation if they didn’t trust the veracity of the NWT. (generally due to uninformed comments like the one above)

( a la Borat ) NICE!

In my post I wrote, “Any minute someone will post some banal, juvenile post that decribes an encounter that almost certainly did not happen. Nonetheless the link will appear, and all will get all misty eyed waxing over the sheer elegance and brilliance over this sophmoric, Wayne’s World fodder. It’s downright obligatory.”

But I edited it out because it seemed too snarky.

Well, whatever the outcome of the thread, and whatever your beliefs about God, Raindog, I have a great deal of respect for you. I’m so renegade with my own interpretations, I certainly have no standing to question yours.

We’ve got a lot of narrow country roads in these parts with a lot of blind hills and curves. The Amish are courteous and they usually try to pull aside but a lot of times, they can’t and we end up puttering along at the same speed for miles.

If you, sir, are suggesting that Master Wang-ka ever told a story that wasn’t the unexpurgated truth, I shall have to ask you to step outside!

Thanks to the raindog for participating, this has been a fascinating thread. As far as i can see, JWs deny the very essence of Christianity, that is the divinity of Christ. I would like to know their take on this from the 20th chapter of John:

Clearly Thomas names Jesus as God. And Jesus does not correct him, but rather blesses those that believe without seeing. What do JWs believe Thomas meant?

We will not discuss my history… it is irrelivant to the point. I will simply say this, I am better informed about both the NWT and the JW History than most… I may be a little rusty in a point by point debate, but I know both the History of the Organization and its techniques better than you would like.

This is not meant as a slam or a challenge to you, it is simply to inform you that I have done extensive research on this subject… and FTR, while I do not agree with the JW (to be more specific, the teachings of the “Watchtower Bible and Tract Society”), I have no personal bias against the followers…

I’m simply going to post a few cites… I haven’t reviewed them all in entirety, but they hit the primary points fairly well…

Wiki Article on the NWT

Article on “Jehovah”

Misleading Revisions in the New World Translation

Point being… do not take my word on the subject… do some research and ask questions.

Raindog, thank you for your posting. I notice that you have not commented on the cruelty of the JWs to my stepfathers wife, or the other stories of posters who have seen the JWs backing up men beating their wives. Could you comment on that? Jesus spoke to the greatest sinners, yet you folks ostracize them. I doubt that Jesus approved of men beating their wives. How do you justify the sadistic treatment of sinners by your church, when Jesus clearly said that what they need is love and compassion?

w.

How do the JWs decide that the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton is ‘Jehovah’?

No Hebrew text from any relevant period would have been pointed, so even if the Name was pronounced (which, given the description of the ancient Temple ritual, seems unlikely), how it was pronounced is not obvious - and indeed the Jewish ‘translation’ of the Tetragrammaton is normally Yahweh. So I’m just wondering where ‘Jehovah’ comes from.

Possibly sometimes, but it depends a great deal on the family and community. I know quite a few ex-Amish personally, and none have been shunned by their families. I think one has an aunt that’s quite a pain to him at family reunions, but I have an aunt like that myself, and I was never Amish.

I agree with you that the Amish get a pass on some behaviors that other groups don’t. And many people have an idealized view of the Amish that doesn’t stand up under close inspection. But in the case of being truly shunned upon leaving the community, it’s certainly not a universal behavior.

In order to understand the subtleys in why the NWT backs up the teachings/theology of the JW in its very translation, one must first stop and think about the translation itself… and by this, I mean the process of translation.

When the NWT was translated, a “translation committee” of 5 people was formed, all members of the “Governing Body” of the JW. No outside scholars were consulted**, and all the members of the committee (by virtue of being on the Governing Body) were well versed in the teachings and beliefs of the JW.

What this means, simply put, is that the translation comittee already knew how they wanted the translation to end up. Since they did not believe in Hell, verses pertaining to Hell were translated “just so”… since they did not believe in the trinity, or the divintiy of Christ, verses pertaining to those issues were translated “just so”… simply put, they biased the translation to favor thier teachings.

(Of course, since they firmly believed what they taught, they simply saw this as correcting what the apostates had already confused in the available translations.)

** the only other ‘scholar’ that the JW ever quoted wrt thier translation work was a Johannes Greber, and that was in support of the John 1:1 translation of “a god”. FTR, Johannes Greber was a catholic priest/spiritist that the WT later dis-avowed ever having quoted.

So far as I know, the NWT is unique in its handling of John 1:1 (other than the aforementioned Greber translation) and it’s handling of the “Cross vs. Stake” issue with the translation of stuaros… both of these issue are enough to show the bias placed into the NWT translation.

A second point one must consider when it comes to the JW… while they claim to study the bible, they only study it with the aid of WT publications… they simply do not use any other tools other than those provided to them by the WT. This will go along with the proofs for the NWT translation issues… the WT will provide (or has provided) the support for thier translation(s), seeming to add in support from external sources, and the majority of JW will never question those proofs.

Why does that matter?

Many times in the past, the WT has proven to be intellectually dishonest with the usage of external scholars… either by directly mis-quoting, leaving out pertinent context, or outright lies. They’ve even been shown to be intellectually dishonest with the WT own history and prior teachings.

The only way a person that is truly interested in these things can find much of this out is by a relatively thorough study of JW teachings past and present, and taking the time to look up the references that the WT provides in its proof. If any are interested, I can find the cites that show how the WT manipulated information for it “Creation” book, as well as one of it’;s more recent “Trinity” brochures.

IOW, to understand the subtletys in the NWT and why they support the WT theology more than any other translation, one must take the time to understand the origins and history of the group, the way the organization “teaches”, and take the time to thourogly research the theology it teaches.

As I have said, I hold no ill-will to any of it’s adherents… but I have done the research to see that it is not at all what it claims to be.

Any organization that claims to be “Gods Organization on Earth” should be able to be honest with all things it teaches… if it has to resort to intelectual dishonesty - and then “dis-fellowships” any that question its teachings from within - well, it simply cannot be what it claims to be.

raindog, if you have any evidence outside of WT publications (and those of WT apologists) to back up the translation claims of John 1:1 and/or the cross/stake issue, please state them here. I’m also interested in any information you have on the year that Jerusalam fell, and it’s importance/lack thereof with modern chronology.

It was the “commonly accepted” understanding of it when they (the JW/WT) came into being… the word “Jehovah” was coined, IIRC, in the 13 or 14th century…

Will he be there…?

My god, will he have his broadsword? :eek:

This isn’t a JW belief, plenty of ‘normal’ Christians believe it. It’s right there in the Book of Revelations several times. Well, not explicitly. It depends on how one interprets it, of course…

I am not interested in your history as much I am in your credentials. You see, the Google Corporation has spawned a legion of “Google Armchair Geniuses”–posters who make claims like, “Very true… it helps when they have their own translation of the scriptures to back them up… …” and;…“Secondly, while they claim to be bible students, and they can certainly quote bits all over the place, what they actually study are the JW Publications “about” bible topics.”

I have no personal bias against you either—really I don’t. However, you made a couple specific claims, and I’m asking you for a specific response.

I’ll ask again: Are you qualified to offer up specific knowledge about the bible in general–and the NWT specifically—that shows that the NWT is written in such a way to support a specific doctrine that couldn’t be supported in another translation? What doctrines are they? IOW, please show me the specific doctrines that are present only in the NWT.

Secondly—and based on your claim—it seems that the implication is that JWs do not study the bible as much as they study JW publications. Is this accurate? My inference from the comment *“…and they can certainly quote bits all over the place,…” *is that JWs are not knowledgeable about the bible. Is this true?

While we wait for simster’s response, I’ll offer you a more accurate statement about the JW faith:

JWs attend 5 meetings weekly, over 3 days. A typical scedule is 1.75 hours on Tuesday evening (2 45 minute meetings), 1 hour on Thursday and 1.75 hours on Sunday (2 45 minute meetings)

JW literature of some sort is used in 4 of the 5 meetings. The literature will center about the topic at hand. If the lesson is about marriage, for example, there will be some structured literature that will be used. In virtually every JW literature you will likely ever see, the bible is quoted, partially or fully, and/or cited extensively to support the program or lesson. There is no “Sunday School” or Nursery and virtually every JW in attendance will have a bible. It is common for children as young as 6 or 7 with their own bible who will follow along and actively use the bible. JWs who teach (which involves most of the congregation) are counseled to let the bible speak in support of the topic at hand; and is in fact a requirement to use the bible in every discussion. I would invite anyone to simply stop in any Kingdom Hall on any given Sunday and see if** simster**'s comment holds a single ounce of water.

One of the segments of the meeting is a progressive reading of the entire bible over a 2 year period. JWs publish a schedule that allows the complete bible to be read[personally at home] in a year. JWs are repeatedly encouraged to read the bible daily. The majority of JWs use the bible to actively prepare or research the bible to better participate discussion at the meetings. Even the JW headquarters in NYC has a sign atop it that can be seen all over NY that says, “Read God’s Word the Bible Daily.”

The implication that JWs are ignorant of the bible in lieu of JW literature is simply hogwash. I’ve heard and spoken with many critics of JWs who often disagree with JW doctrine, but many of them will readily acknowledge that JWs are extremely well versed in the bible. (while disagreeing with their interpretations of it)

Let me get this straight…
I asked you a specific question and received a general answer with a series of hyperlinks that you haven’t read in their entirety?

It is particularly ironic then that you would end with, "Point being… do not take my word on the subject… do some research and ask questions."

Well, I read them in their entirety. I’m not sure how to respond, other than to say that you offer no arguments of your own, other than some web sites you haven’t read!

I can’t do your reading for you, nor is Google a surrogate for having a command of the topic you’re discussing. For those interested I will, say this: take simster’s advice. Do your own research. That means a bit more than Googling up stuff you haven’t read, and don’t fully understand.

And, if you have questions about JWs, go ask one, or go to their web site.

Raindog, thanks for your post. I was wondering if you were going to answer my question.

I find nothing in Jesus’s words that says you should shun people, cut them off from contact with their friends and family, if they have sinned. I find this to be the worst part of the JW teachings, and I have seen its cruel, inhumane application myself.

Jesus preached love and forgiveness. You preach ostracism and enforced isolation. Please fight ignorance here by telling us where Jesus advocated that kind of heartless intolerance.

All the best,

w.

Nice attempt to swerve the argument… My credentails are irrelivent, the links I provided are the basis for the argument wrt the NWT and its internal bias… deal with them. If I had typed them out here, you would ignore them and argue my “credibility” and never deal with the claims made.

In a later post, I asked you two specific questions… if you want to ignore the links, that’s fine… deal with those instead.

And I should’ve been more clear about what I have read/not read… I was specifically refering to the Wiki post, since it has a number of links ‘out’ and I was not going to verify every bit of that one.

Is there anything incorrect in those links? Pick one item and we’ll discuss it at length.

Where did I say this? I never said this… what I did say, and you well backed up, is that the JW study the bible thru the usage of WT literature, and that is the primary way. As a group, you do not go beyond what the WT provides, so you are well versed in “WT” teachings and theology. Any proofs you offer to back up the more ‘unique’ claims/teachings of the WT will only come from WT literature. Of course this means that you use the bible… it does not mean that you “study” the bible for the bible itself.

What I want, from you, is evidence for any of the claims that has a basis in ‘secular’ (non WT) teachings.

This practice goes all the way back to your founder, Charles Russell and the “Studies in Scripture” which, as he put it " are the bible topically arranged".

He also made the claim that “anyone who uses his books will come into the light, and if they go back to using ‘just’ the bible, will fall into darkness in a short time”… (that’s a paraphrase).

You should, by now, realize that I am intimately familar with the JW and thier teachings and methods.

If you wanna pick one, deal with the “cross vs stake” issue and the translation of stauros… it is a good example.