If a seemingly intelligent person tells me that his dog is actually the reincarnation of Pocahontas, and speaks to him, I don’t feel it necessary to spend more than a fraction of a second examining the possibility that his dog is anything other than a dog. The person is either pulling my leg, or he’s not as bright as I thought he was - or perhaps he’s intelligent, but his judgment is seriously flawed.
The notion that all ideas are equally worthy of consideration is not supportable. Pursued to its logical conclusion, it would make it impossible for anyone to get through the day.
All I am saying is that it is incorrect to not consider that one’s own presuppositions might be flawed. That, in and of itself, is a sign of injudiciousness, especially when those presuppositions support one’s own views. Reason can be just as bastardised as faith. If a seemingly intelligent person tells you that his dog is actually the reincarnation of Pocahontas, you don’t recognise the possibility that perhaps you have misheard, or misunderstood the situation? In other words, when someone does something you do not understand, your assumption is that the error is on their end - how do you know it isn’t on yours? Because if you don’t address that possibility, then if your reasoning is flawed, you’ll never know.
You make it sound like hiring someone to do work for you. “Eh, I can’t fix this sink, and I can’t be arsed to figure it out myself, so i’ll just get someone to do the work for me and reap the benefits”. A religious person can have put just as much effort into it as someone with their own personal belief system; and someone with their own ideas can be as insular and uncontemplary.
If I say, “Did you just say that your dog is the reincarnation of Pocahontas,” and he responds, “No, I said he’s a poodle mix,” then we have no problem. Otherwise… :rolleyes:
I think we’ve established that Rev Wright is officially a dickhead.
We have not established that Obama shares those particular hateful views which Rev Wright espouses. He may instead agree with the Rev’s general religious dogma/ Biblical interpretation (which is why most people go to a particular church) and simply have turned a blind eye to the various occasional side rants about politics, Jews etc because Wright is a nice guy in person, much in the same way that Queen Elizabeth II politely ignores quite a lot of what Prince Philip says or the way I pointedly let slide what some of my inlaws say about “those darkies” for the sake of interfamily harmony.
Statements followed by “The Jews” or “Them Jews” are usually offensive. I would be hard-pressed to think of a counterexample, but I don’t think I need to. I didn’t take any issue with the whole “God damn America thing,” but here, Wright sounds like a bigoted old man. I’ve never heard Obama sound like a bigot and I don’t think he is one. That would be the difference between them right there.
I have the sense that you have no idea what it means to be a part of an established congregation. It has more to do with the people than any particular preacher. Marriage and baptism are primarily to be shared with fellow congregants and there is little choice as to who officiates.
Obama’s family reference to Wright makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t doubt that Wright may have made racist comments in the past in Obama’s presence, but it seems to me the degree of apparent conviction in those comments are likely on par with what we hear every day amongst the common people including our own family members now and then. Just not enough to part company with fellow congregants.
It seems to me however that as Wright saw the opportunity to gain a national profile, his words gained conviction, significance and negative power to the point of being intolerable.
Anyone who believe’s we need to ascribe some failure on Obama’s part for Wright places a high burden on all of us. I’ve read enough racist comments around here.
Should I leave ?
I’m continually amazed at your ability to rationalize and minimize anything you’d personally like to dismiss. I don’t know why I’m still amazed, but I am.
It may be exactly like your 90 year old grandmother, in the sense that when your grandmother talks about “those Vietnamese” preventing her from doing something, she is being a racist. Unless of course a Vietnamese person is blocking her access to the pho stand, which some of them have been known to do, the dirty pho hoggers.
It’s really cute how everytime you are confronted with something that Obama has said or done that you don’t agree with, you dismiss it with “Oh, but he doesn’t really believe that!” You have such clarity of insight into his true beliefs (as opposed to those he actually claims), it just amazes me.
Obama’s against gay marriage? “Oh, he just says that. He doesn’t really believe it.”
Obama’s against Habeas Corpus for detainees? “Oh, he just says that, He doesn’t really believe it.”
Obama’s believes Jesus is his only Saviour? “Oh, he just says that, He doesn’t really believe it.”
Obama doesn’t want to release abuse photos? “Oh, he just says that, he doesn’t really believe it.”
Obama won’t release wire tapping information? “Oh he just says that, he doesn’t really believe it.”
Obama’s against partial birth abortion? “Oh he just says that, he doesn’t really believe it.”
Dio are you getting all hyperbolic on us again? Yeah, I think you are.
Wright is an insignificant idiotic loon who is indefensible and who is now baiting the media for the attention it gets him. (I think media attention is addicting and those who have had it will do anything for one more hit.) All except the extreme Right wingnuttery is past the point of trying to deduce Obama’s thoughts and beliefs by what past associations he may have had - his current associations are more telling - including “them Jews” in his inner circle.
I don’t think that’s true. Most people go to a particular church because it’s the one their parents went to. That’s why there are so many Catholics but so few (IME) that accept all or even most Catholic policy pronouncements. Churches change to suit the views of their congregants more than their congregants change to suit churches.
I think it’s pretty clear that Wright is a bigot. I agree that it’s not clear (or even likely) that Obama is too. Rahm Emanuel served in the IDF, so it’s probably a safe bet that he’s not a self-hating Jew, and I don’t think it at all likely that he would serve as Chief of Staff to a President who he even suspected of being a closet anti-Semite.
His refusal to denounce Wright and his decision to cut ties with him are not incompatible.
Contrast his actions with those of McCain, who accepted John Hagee’s endorsement without any sort of qualifier- and didn’t even have a personal relationship with Hagee to ruin by refusing it.
As an Obama supporter, I’m not thrilled about this.
And more cosmically, I was under the impression that the deal was, after our side complained for eight long years about Bush supporters making excuses for him and defending his every action without any critical thought at all, that we would then become exemplars of what we were advocating for and NOT blindly defend our guy after he carried the day.
While I’m not thrilled, I’m not exactly appalled, either. I don’t regret voting for him, would do it again, still feel pretty darn positive about his presidency.
But on this particular … I hate to even call it an issue, because that seems to imply some sort of consequence or import … so let’s say this particular mishugas … I think this is hardly ideal behavior. He’s not dumb, so I’m confident it’s not a case of somehow failing to notice Wright’s way of expressing his worldview over the course of 20 years. If Obama was attending that specific church for political reasons, he should have also had the presence of mind to figure out that this is the kind of thing that routinely comes up for candidates seeking higher office. I don’t think for a moment that he agrees with Wright, but I’m surprised Obama, who is clearly an endgame kind of guy, didn’t approach the situation more adeptly.
As an Obama supporter, I don’t give a crap about this - I mean, Wright came out and said Obama doesn’t want to talk to him. In other words, Obama is doing exactly what I’d want him to do.
On the other hand, I am deeply unhappy (and become more unhappy daily) about his decision to prop up every failing corporation in America. I understand the bank bailout, although I don’t think it was necessary to bail out the entire financial sector. However, I’m becoming increasingly certain that GM, Chrysler and whatever other manufacturing concerns go bust in the next few months need to be allowed to die.
I’m not sure exactly what we should be doing to employ all their workers, of course, although if I had my druthers we’d be offering low-interest loans to other automakers willing to step in, with the option of some protective tariffs.
ETA: While I’m throwing it out there, I’m also dismayed by the decision to allow “don’t ask, don’t tell” to remain in place.
It would be more like being a member at StormFront for twenty years without leaving. There comes a point where silence can be construed as assent, especially for someone you dedicate a book to.
I have been a member of an established congregation for most of my life, and this isn’t my experience at all.
If a pastor of a church I was a member of spouted the kind of racism that Wright has done, I would leave the church and find a different one. As a matter of fact, I have left churches where the preacher’s sermons contained what I considered unacceptable views.
Again, not in my experience.
FWIW, being a member of a congregation is not as strong a bond as being part of a family. I may have to tolerate racist remarks from my father-in-law (may he rest in peace), but not from the person who is supposed to be my spiritual leader and mentor. If he starts spouting that crap, I’m gone.
I don’t feel that is an unrealistic standard for myself. Therefore, it is not an unrealistic standard for a Presidential candidate. The best possible face I can put on it is, Obama did not think the racism was enough to interfere with the very close relationship he had with Wright for several decades.
Even if you spin it as hard as you can for Obama, it still doesn’t look very good.