Whether or not He actually did what the Bible says He did…
Jesus inspired a faction of a movement whose beliefs, at their core, inspired such people as Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, John Calvin, and St Paul.
His message, whether correct or not, has raised hospitals, schools, cathedrals, and some of the greatest artwork the world has ever seen.
He is a central figure in the best-selling book of all time.
Parables and quoted attributed to Him have consoled people in all kinds of situations for two millennia.
Yet, you still think this guy isn’t very impressing? :rolleyes:
The Bible is not the source of the religion any more than the constitution is the source of the American way of life. In the text of each are held the tenants of the (to use a generic term) philosophy, but as the Constitution is not the U.S., nor is the Bible the religion.
The Bible is a collection of stories and parables written to organize and exemplify the tenants of the Christian faith. It is not written in the philoso-speak of the Constitution but in the manner of stories and legends used at the time. Considering this, it becomes a lot easier to understand how someone can hold and adopt the religion, though the ‘collected sayings’ associated with it have internal contradictions and or fantastical happenings. The Orthodox or Fundamentalist components of ANY religion that attempt to adhere to the literal word are not indicators of the religion as a whole, and to imply that their flaws are endemic to other septs is intellectually dishonest.
The situation is not analogous to a group of people reading J.R.R. Tolkien’s Silmarilion and deciding to form a religion where Morgoth and Ungoliant are real. (Actual cases of this might be Scientology and Cthulu cults). Instead, significant events happened during a crucial time in history, and a huge number of people were profoundly affected (See AHunter3’s beautiful post on page 1). Subsequently, a text was written regarding these events, was attached to a form of the Torah, and bang! - the Bible. But it was ancillary to the religion that already existed. It is an important focus of the religion, as it is the codified ‘hardcopy’, and the religion exists in the faith of the followers. NOT their faith in the text, but in the religious maxims described within the text.
Now, whether you should be impressed by it or Jesus, well, really doesn’t matter at all. The arrogance that bleeds from your posts, the implication that somehow YOU should be impressed and that anything not impressive you is therefore somehow objectively worthless is bothersome, but only in the way that adolescent self-centeredness is annoying. Debate and discussion only occurs when both parties have an interest in what the others have to say, and your responses over 4 pages are analogous to waving your hand in the air and shouting “whatever”. Real great debate. If your intention was to state mere opinion, this shoulda been thrown in IMHO.
As a non-theist, I’d like to add that Jesus impresses me. Forget he is a religious icon, forget any notion of taking the bible literally, and just consider the concepts he embodies. I could never fault someone who attempts to live in accordance with these ideals.
I’m sick of fanatics on both sides of the debate. I’m no more impressed by infantile attacks on people’s religion (most of whom are quietly minding their own business), than I am with fundamentalist sermonizing. Of the problems I believe can be attributed to religion, almost as a rule they involve extremist, inflexible, and intolerant belief systems. This is not a description of the average theist, and it is unfair to assume it is.
Lolo: You apologized for labeling me as religious in another thread. That was not your mistake, and you completely missed my point. Your error is in your unyielding and misinformed attacks. You would do well to desist and offer apologies all around.
Apologize for what? calling 'em like I see 'em? No.
If I’ve offended you, oopsy daisy. You are on a message board. I’m discussing your words. outside of the board, I’m sure I wouldn’t be lacking in respect unless I was confronted. So, please, save the “you hurt my feelings” routine for your therapist.
I respect all of you as people. Your ideas, however, I will challenge regardless, as you are are free to challenge mine.
Now about the bible, for all of you who love to spout off that nonsense that it isn’t the source, etc, of your faith, let’s try an experiment.
Take the bible away.
Do you have Christianity?
No.
Can you have people with good intentions? Yes.
Let’s see if we can think of some.
How about a few million Native Americans who got along without the word of Jesus or any of the other stories in the book. Can we count them?
I’m sorry, it’s just I so easily get annoyed with the smell emanating from so many posts.
Now that you mention it, though, there are some parallels between the way these two documents are treated:[ul][li]Although the Constitution is not the source of the American way of life, many Americans treat it as a Sacred Document. The same, obviously, can be said about the Bible and Christians.[/li]
[li]The Bible contains a few short passages that are quoted over and over (e.g. John 3:16), but mostly consists of long, boring articles that few people, including its adherents, know intimately. (Quick! Who was King of Judah when Jeroboam II assumed the throne of Israel?) The same can be said for the Constitution: The Bill of Rights (especially amendments 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, and 10) is quoted ad nauseum, but few people know which of the powers of the President require the Senate’s consent, or can tell you off-hand how many years Congress is allowed to make an appropriation of money to raise armies, for example.[/li]
[li]Both the Bible and the Constitution tend to get tied up in arguments between those who want to take every word of the document literally, and those who prefer to follow the spirit of the document over and above its letter.[/li]
And, of course, both documents are written on yellow, crinkly paper. ;)[/ul]
Honestly, lolo, you haven’t demonstrated a degree of intelligence that would give me cause to ponder your opinion beyond the time it takes to decipher your abysmal grammar, let alone be offended by it. I find your take slightly less provocative than a Dr. Seuss book, and at least Mr. Geisel had the brilliant foresight to rhyme his nonsensical prose. You needn’t worry about offending me.
I sincerely doubt you would have the audacity to speak this way to anyone in person. This is one facet of your myriad errors. You believe that the rules of civil discourse don’t apply when you are at the keyboard.
You are entitled to be unimpressed by Jesus, but tell me why you felt the need to create this topic? It was never formed as a proper debate, and you don’t seem capable of comprehending or digesting differing opinions. What do you expect to accomplish here?
The reason, I can see, most of you are so quick to label me unintelligent is b/c I have no need to placate the nonsense most Christians–and many Christian dopers–spew.
I recognize it and dismiss it.
**
So much for your doubt, I’ve done it countless times.
Now, as for my civil discourse, I must say most of you are gifted at joining this particularly trite little bandwagon.
I’ve stated a few opinions, used the word ‘silly’, and suddenly I’m in the klan.
**
I suppose I felt the need to create this topic b/c of the millions upon millions of sheep willing to shout “jesus is lord” at the drop of… well nothing, they just shout it.
I’ve already said it was my mistake to place the topic in the GD forum and that, no, it wasn’t much of a debate.
I’ve comprehended and digested all opinions.
Sorry to say, most tasted like poo-poo. I can only eat so much.
Lolo: Forgive me for talking to you like an adult. I thought perhaps I could give you advice that if heeded, may prevent you from being labeled an insufferable troll and made the object of ridicule. I withdraw my advice. I’ll be heading back to the pit where you are being lampooned most cleverly, content that I gave you the benefit of the doubt before laughing at your antics.
Bull. I live in the middle of the Bible Belt, in a town where people routinely ask each other “Where do you go to church?” as a conversational icebreaker.
There is NO ONE shouting “Jesus is Lord” anywhere around me at the drop of a hat. Even the most devout of these workaday, common Christians save their open worship for Sundays in church. You can go to the grocery, or to the movies, or to the gas station and never, ever be bombarded by vicious Fundamanetalist prosyletising.
So I think you are full of baloney about these “millions of sheep”. What – did a small group of fire-and-brimstone Bible-thumpers at your school make THAT much of an impression on you? You just could not pass them by or blow them off? You just couldn’t?
Actually, it’s about time we congratulated Lolo; I don’t think I’ve ever seen another thread like this one, where atheist and theist stand shoulder to shoulder in the fight against ignorance.
Well done.
[sub]Although on reflection maybe the real credit belongs to the Dopers[/sub]
The last time that happened was when the board was crashed by the Left Behinders. I remember how embarrassed I was by their behavior. I cringed and cringed and cringed.
I know how atheists must feel about Lolo. I hope they know that I most certainly do not think, based on my experience here, that he is representative of them in any way whatsoever. I see him for what he is. An anamoly. A Left Behinder with a different dialect.
