Jesus, just a man. Why not?

The esteemed penguin who serves as a reality check in the Hello Kitty series commented that Jesus was “a fictional character like Uncle Sam.”

You may have unintentionally targeted the precise problem facing people who have never bought into or rejected any Christian interpretation of who J.C. was but want to get some handle on the person behind the myth. As you are, I suspect, aware, “Uncle” Sam Wilson was a meatpacker in Troy NY – about 1.5 miles from where Waterj2 normally hangs out – who sold goods to the fledgling U.S. Army, and ended up turning into the stuff of legend, complete with red-white-and-blue suspenders. (I think Snopes has details, an corrections to the traditional “everybody knows” stories about him.) The point was that there was a historical character that lies behind a major myth structure. I see no reason to think otherwise on the guy whose “official” birthday we celebrated a couple of days ago.

That dog won’t hunt. Take, for instance, the Falun Dafa movement in China. Its adherents have been killed and imprisoned for their beliefs, which include a faith in a lving Messiah, Li Hongzhi, yet refuse to recant. Do you think Falun Gong claims are worth examining in depth? They also believe that every believer has a mystical wheel of energy in their stomachs and that assiduous meditation gives them supernatural powers. Plenty of people have been willing to die for false beliefs.

I certainly hope others are finding this thread as disturbing as I am.

The originally intended question is really quite simple to interpret:

Christian version:
Why do YOU believe in the divinity of Jesus?

Non-Christian version:
Why do you think Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus?

All the Christian answers here have had a common theme: Partially suppressing their own personal authority to question it in favor of assessing what others thought about it. So, their response looks like this:

  1. Who else believes/ed it?
  2. How trustworthy were they?

They aren’t getting the main point: No historical or living person is trustworthy AT ALL about any religious belief. I think this must be a core tenet of any sensible personal philosophy, because, for any given belief system the answers to the questions above are:

  1. Lots of people.
  2. Not at all.

A room full of savants and geniuses can easily all believe in the Egyptian god Ra, if they all happen to be Egyptians.

MEBuckner, a clearly intelligent person, makes the incredible implication (above) that books written 300-400 YEARS!! after the events in question in some way add credibility to the claim because the authors seem trustworthy and “emphasize a certain concrete factuality” and “makes a point of the physical reality” of these claims.

I believe MEBuckner and the other Christians here are well aware of how poor their logic is. Obviously if scholars 300 years from now write compellingly about the Heaven’s Gate cult’s beliefs, they will still be nonsense. It would only prove that during those 300 years people were susceptible to the propagation of that particular belief, for any number of reasons best understood through sociology, not theology. It would only prove that smart people are gullible, an already well-known fact.

No amount of authoritative, articulate, well-researched, contemporaneous research could possible convince me of the truth of any religious claim, because I know how misled authoritative, articulate researchers can be. And so do you.

So skip the deference to ancient scholars, and answer the real questions: Why do YOU believe it? What do you get out of it? What would happen if you stopped? How would others react to your rejection of it? Could you be happy without it? Would you be scared? How much would your life change?

Uh, Axel Wheeler, I strongly urge you to go back and Re-read Mike Buckner’s posts and see the point he was actually making. (And if you have sent him into a fatal paroxysm with your assertion that he is a Christian, a lot of his admirers on this MB are going to be really upset with you.)

Uh, right. Thanks. Um. Sorry about that, MB. My bad. Mike was discussing whether there were literalists in early Christianity, and wasn’t using that fact itself as evidence.

However, that was only an example (admittedly a mistaken one) of the thinking that is used by Christians in this regard. While I don’t know that other posters here are necessarily Christian they do seem to use the traditional approach I discussed.

So replace all references to MEBuckner in my earlier post with “Many Christians”. Thanks, Tom (ndebb, ntoto too :slight_smile: )

Goboy, I certainly take your point. But you seem to have missed mine, not surprisingly, since it was inordinately poorly stated. It would be this:

“There’s an awful lot of smoke over there. Probably nothing important, but don’tcha think we ought to check out what’s smoldering?”

I’m not arguing the reality of the Resurrection from those firm believers. I’m arguing the idea that something happened that was interpreted as the resurrection can be inferred from them. And suggesting it might be worthwhile to explore what.

If you looked at my Spong thread, you’ll know that I believe in “the Resurrection” as a historical phenomenon where people were convinced that they saw, not Jesus’s ghost, nor some mystic figure, but something they interpreted as the flesh-and-blood Jesus come back to life, but with some interesting additional “supernatural skills.” Precisely what that phenomenon was remains to be established. It seems unlikely to have been exclusively the revivification of Jesus’s dead body, given the additional frippery, and assuming that this was not midrash tossed on a “Jesus sighting” (a la Elvis sightings). But for many of us Christians, there seems to be very little doubt based on internal belief/assurance that something that can be described as “He rose from the dead” did happen. I’m not arguing for a particular interpretation, and I’m not demanding skeptics accept my assertions. I’m merely trying to get a debate on some common ground going, as opposed to a group of True Believers pointing to the Resurrection stories in the Bible vs. skeptics saying it’s impossible (a la the Arkansas farmer and the giraffe). If something happened once, then it’s not impossible, despite its high degree of improbability. Just because the Bible says it doesn’t make it certain. Somewhere inbetween is the truth, and I’d like to find it.

Oh, and MEB, if you’ve recovered from being called a Christian, I’d have to go to great lengths to explain where I’m coming from, but it amounts to taking an interpretive view of Heinlein’s extrapolations of the behavior of American society, and factoring in the Moral Majority of a few years ago, the extreme partisanship of the drawn-out election just ended, the press for greater freedom and the tendency to protect us from ourselves, and the growth of major discount retailers, and coming up with a Constitutional crisis, and possibly much more, averted through a martyrdom twelve years from now. That is quite simply prognostication, and I don’t expect anyone else to buy into it. But I’m betting on Heinlein’s track record to date (see a GQ thread on this), my own speculations on the reality behind eschatology, and God’s lovingkindness towards us.

That something happened 2000 years ago is beyond question. An event happened that resulted in the world being littered with houses dedicated to a Jewish carpenter and millions of people praying to him. Was it an actual resurrection, an urban legend, a deliberate deception? Who knows? There is no way, short of inventing a time machine, to find out the truth about Jesus empirically.

Because Jesus’s resurrection is ultimately unfalsifiable (barring some archeologist digging up some bones with a note saying "This is Jesus’s body. We hid it. Signed, The Apostles), the only honest answer is to shrug one’s shoulders and say, “I dunno.” If you choose to believe, then just be honest and say you believe because you want to, not because there’s any real objective evidence. And saying that you feel it in your soul doesn’t count as evidence, just conviction. Remember what Paul says in Hebrews 11:1, “Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.”

Well, I have read the Bible and talked to many Christians. I feel I have done my part for your particular smoke. I take it you will commence studying Heaven’s Gate and Falun Dafa with the exact same willingness and experimentation and in-depth and openminded perusal of various holy books and apologetics as I have done for Christianity? The argument from “smoke” is not honest if you only use it to support your own theory, and discount it for others; I see no reason why your smoke is a better argument than any other’s.

Well, I’m curious. Please elucidate. A martyrdom 12 years from now will avert the growth of major discount retailers? :wink:

Ah, now we are getting somewhere…

This “internal belief/assurance” thing may be what Linear Crack was really asking about.

Perhaps there is an even more basic tenet working here, that it is important to have this kind of foundational assurance. Christian ministers often refer to their faith as “rock-solid” and so forth, as if it were very important to be completely convinced of something, a particular thing, that forms the basis of a worldview. As if the assurance itself were an important personal goal.

My aunt, a nonbeliever, was once interviewed by a nun who was perfectly pleasant during the interview, but in the published version referred to my aunt as “missing something”, namely faith. She was described as if she were a ship adrift, lacking direction or purpose, aimlessly meandering through life, looking for something but never finding.

Perhaps the first step in creating and reinforcing a Christian is emphasizing the importance of this kind of assurance in life, and characterizing nonbelief as purposeless or aimless.

I think the reality of nonbelief is just the opposite; we tend to see our world as blossoming with opportunities for philosophical as well as scientific exploration. We see religion as nipping the buds of young minds everywhere. My favorite analogy is, “The train of thought that begins in the classroom derails on the altar.”

Of course, for many Christians this is untrue, but it’s just my way of thinking about these things.

Now I’ll totally screw up this analogy; perhaps religion is really the train, taking a secure, reliable journey, but to where? The Promised Land. But that’s just it; it’s promised. Nonbelievers are airplanes exploring the world around them unfettered (or somewhat less fettered) by authority. We become excited and satisfied with the possibilities of this world right here. Even if the Promise were true, we were prefer the scenery right here. Arrogant sum-na-bitches, ain’t we?

Head-in-clouds mode off…

I’m an atheist but I think I have the answer to this one down pat.

If Jesus was not the son of God then he was a complete crackpot. If some strange man walked up to you and forgave you for the sins you committed against another man what would you think? That’s right, “What a crackpot.” Plus he spit in someone’s eyes to cure blindness. If that isn’t crazy I don’t know what is.

Marc

Um, MGib, I don’t see how saying JC was a crackpot explains why people believe in his religion.

I also just want to say that Christians who engage in these discussions see to me to be doing fine in the world. They are Christian intellectuals, and any kind of intellectual is OK by me. My concern, which you may share, is that so may young people grow up without even realizing that they have a choice; that there are people who really don’t believe and who are not insane street people. The overwhelming majority of scientists, for example.

I think that for these kids religion does a great harm, sticking an intellectual pacifier in their mouths and nudging them toward simple traditional goals of family and career, and away from philosophical and even real spiritual inquiry, which can only be fairly rooted in a fundamental spiritual uncertainty, it seems to me.

So kudos to the Christians here and elsewhere who inquire around the pacifier, as it were, asking with your mouths full, but do you think religion does a disservice to some or most of those who accept it uncritically?

First, as to evidence:

Goboy is entirely correct that there is no uncontrovertible evidence “proving” the Resurrection, whatever it may have been, was not some sort of fraud or misinterpretation. I will note that the Gospel writers were at pains to discount the idea of Jesus the Friendly Ghost, and only casually to discount the idea that he was d-e-a-d with no life-after-death event whatsoever. The latter would of course fit our present-day worldview much better than either the risen body or ghost hypotheses, the ghost hypothesis being the more appealing to the first-century mindset.

However, he contrasts objective evidence with faith, by which I derive the impression he means uncritical acceptance of teachings. I’d note that there is such a thing as valid subjective evidence, which extends only as far as the person experiencing it and those who respect his or her authority. For example, the majority of those reading this are either married or have a significant other whom they trust. There is absolutely no objective proof that at this precise minute, as you read this, your spouse/SO is not draining your 401(k) and retirement, maxing out your credit cards, signing massive bank loans in your name, selling your nonliquid property, and planning to take his/her illgotten proceeds and run off to an overseas resort in a country with no extradition with the US. Yet few if any of my readers have jumped up to stop this theft. Why? Because you know this other person and place trust in his/her good faith towards you, that he or she would not do such a thing.

For millions of Christians down through the centuries, such an inner knowledge and trust has been extended towards an entity they have experienced and know as the one God in three persons. This is “faith” by their definition… an inner certainty, not founded on external evidence or logic but not an uncritical acceptance of the words of any Book. For them the validity of the Bible, such as it is, derives from the experience. Not “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so,” but “Jesus loves me, He told me so, hence the Bible is not just snow.” :slight_smile: Certainly their claims regarding such experiences are not “proof” to anyone but them and those who trust their authority. But it stands above “uncritical acceptance” as a level of personally experienced evidence.

And Axel’s point is very well taken. I would say that reasoned critical examination of every aspect of one’s faith is, far from being sinful, the proper behavior of an intelligent believer. And instilling in young people the idea that this is so on authority and not subject to doubt or debate is far from inducing any decent faith in them. “Perfect love casts out fear” as St. John was wont to say.

Examination of the evidence surrounding the Falun Gong and the various cultic claims does not point to the same sort of development. Where their “silly claims” are not misinterpretations of reasonable data (chakras as their term for the activity of nerve plexuses, for example), they do not lead to that same inner confidence in reasonable people. And I think you would have to admit that at least some of the believers in the God of Abraham in one of the three major interpretations of Him are fairly reasonable people outside this strange hangup about God. I do not have a problem exploring what other belief systems have to say; there’s an element of truth in almost every theory. I tend to confine my explorations to those with some degree of evidence surrounding their claims. The guys who believe that the Gods live on top of Mount Everest, for example, need to clarify why Hillary and Norkay didn’t run into them before they get any critical examination from me. But what Guatama Sakyamuni the Enlightened had to say, I take with some respect, if not credence, and I learn more about what a non-Western search for ultimate reality might be from him and his followers. I have immense respect for the work of Lao-Tse, and believe about 2/3 of the Tao as a sort of Chinese Platonism anticipating the conceptualizations of Christian metaphysicists and avoiding the natural/supernatural dichotomy that has messed up their thinking.

Gaudere, the growth of discount retail chains was merely a sidelight on the trends I see occurring. The tendency of fundamentalists to define a narrow orthodoxy with a stringent moral code based on their interpretation of the Bible, and (some of them) to expect this as the normative behavior of this supposedly Christian nation, is the farthest thing from the religion I practice. Contrary to the idea that salvation is God’s free gift, which Jesus and even Paul taught, they structure it around a formal verbal acceptance and then the living of this faith according to that stringent code (“the Narrow Road” of LBMB fame) – “You have to earn your salvation; you can’t get it on special at Wal-Mart.” Well, the farthest thing from that; I think you can. And I know just what I’m saying here. God loves you, just as you are, no matter what.

Now, to extend that: First, let me reflect once again that in the first century all reasonable thinkers were convinced that the Messianic prophecies of the Jews were either complete booshwa or to be interpreted symbolically, as the task of the Chosen People to be examples to the world of life under God’s Law, while a few True Believers were convinced that the Messiah would come in power, restore the true worship to the Temple and throw out those Romans and Herodians and rule Israel in justice and glory. Nobody expected a wandering carpenter’s son to teach love, mercy and forgiveness, and then be put to death – and they surely didn’t expect him to come back to life as the promised Messiah. Yet that’s the story as we have it, accept it or not.

Today, the LB group expects the Great Tribulation, the Rapture, and JC to come back on the clouds to separate the sheep (them, who have followed the Narrow Road) from the goats (all us unbelievers, skeptics, and “people who water down Christianity” by, e.g., saying there’s salvation for gays without them repenting of their sinful sexuality. (You know where I stand on that issue, having had to wade through 50 pages of explication of what Christianity really says IMHO a couple of months ago.) And of course everybody else thinks that the Second Coming is looney-bin stuff or else buys into a Spongian interpretation of a post-death encounter with God out of this time and space.

Now, take Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988). In 1940 he was writing about such strange stuff as cities decaying at the center and sprawling towards each other along major corridors, space travel being ho-hum to the general populace, water beds, remote manipulators he named Waldos, solar power, the decline of rational thought as technology grew and became more nearly “indistinguishable from magic” (a Clarke phrase, but a characteristically Heinlein concept) except to the practitioners, and a change in sexual mores to allow much more freedom than in the 1950s – unwed mothers and birth control being common and spoken of publicly, homosexuals admitting their sexuality, all that unthinkable stuff.

In short, he extrapolated the world of today, with the particular exception of personal computing, from trends he saw starting in the 1930s and 1940s.

He also extrapolated the growth of fundamentalist religion, a small minority view in his time, and of cults. And he suggested that demagogues might utilize this uncritical faith, coupled with the natural conservatism of big business, as a means to political power. And if that doesn’t sound familiar, you haven’t been reading the papers.

Now mix in Stranger in a Strange Land, with the lead character not raised as a Martian but instead divorced from society by another traditional means of making one feel oneself an outsider. Put him on a collision course with the aforementioned demagogue. Mix in some dirty politics.

And set it when Heinlein did, twelve years from now.

As somebody said as a .sig here, “I may be wrong, but I’m certain.” :slight_smile:

Your analogy of the trust in a mate is duly noted, but are you saying that you have faith in Jesus for the same reasons? You’ve never met Jesus, let alone shared a house or a bank account with Him. The only “valid subjective evidence” you can muster is a mystical religious experience.
That’s all well and good, but it is no more evidence of the truth of Christianity than the exact same experiences of the Mormons or Muslims are.

Exactly.

Huh? MEBuckner pointed out that they were willing to die for their beliefs. If that isn’t confidence, how do you claim that Christians have confidence? And what do you know of the Falun Gong; have you ever talked to one personally or studied their writings and holy books, as I have for Christians? It is very easy to make a knee-jerk assumption that people who beleive they have a wheel of energy in their stomachs are wacko. However, from my point of view nearly all such mystical beliefs, whether it is walking on water or magic wheel, seem equally credible (which is to say, not very credible at all). I see no particular reason why a God that is three persons yet only one person is any more reasonable than a magic wheel of energy; Christians have explanations for their beliefs, I am sure the Falun Gong do as well. They simply are not mainstream–if they were, we’d be discussing the magic wheel in this forum while the Gong dismissed the Christian three-in-one as not inspiring the same sort of confidence in their followers (while secretly thinking the whole three-in-one as so silly as to be unworthy of notice).

The qualification of “reasonable” depends on where you are viewing it from. Quite frankly, there are many people who seem quite reasonable except for a few things; there are people who seem very reasonable, until they start telling you about aliens abducting them or sighting Elvis. If someone appears reasonable, I’ll listen to the evidence, but I don’t believe their evidence should be held to lower standards.

So, you are saying we’re going to get a charasmatic leader who is killed? That’s certainly a reasonable assumption; it has happened many times previously. I daresay I could dig up a person that this happened to this very year. I must admit I find it mildly bizarre that your epitome of lovingkindness keeps killing people to make a point. :confused:

Axel Wheeler–I was all set to write a reply telling you I’m not a Christian, but I always try to read the entire thread before I reply to anything in it, and I see that’s been taken care of. (No, Tom, no fatalities here.)

I wasn’t really trying to say what Paul and the Apostles (i.e., the guys who presumably actually knew Jesus of Nazareth) thought; even the genuinely Pauline epistles might have been polished up a bit to bring them in line with later orthodoxy. I was just reacting to Patricio’s suggestion that modern literalists have somehow abandoned the historic Christian message. (Or at least that’s what it seemed to me he was saying.) I think that fundamentalists do have a point when they assert that they’re just sticking with what Christians have always believed, as opposed to this newfangled stuff by people like Bishop Spong. Very early on–in the first few centuries C.E.–Christians seem to have settled on a version of things which explicitly rejected the idea that the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth were just “spiritual” things. I don’t know what Jesus and his actual disciples taught, and I doubt we’ll ever be able to find out with any certainty. We have other texts which reflect other points of view–all those Gnostics and others who are retroactively labeled “heretics”–but the existing New Testament seems to have been written by (or at least redacted by) people who were “literalists” as opposed to having some more spiritual conception of things. So modern fundamentalists aren’t just “some people today” but are in fact in accord with the views of “the early scholars of Christianity”, if by early you mean “going back at least to the first few centuries of Christianity”.

Gaudere:

Uh, bad choice of words. There are penalties for unauthorized exhumation, you know! :smiley:

He doesn’t; you get your choice between those opposed to Him doing the killing and those getting killed giving their lives. But that’s what I suggest is going to happen. And for the same reason as the event we keep debating.

Goboy, I take your point, and simply note that we’re in agreement, though as one of those “subjectively convinced” people it matters more to me than to you. I’d welcome your comments in particular on the other half of my long post, ostensibly addressed to Gaudere, as well.

I also just wanted to throw out here that Mark, the oldest Gospel, may have originally ended at 16:8. Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James, and Salome go to the tomb to care for the body; they find the tomb empty, with an angel in it who tells them “Jesus isn’t here”. Nobody actually sees Jesus at all. Then they get scared and run away. That’s it. The details of whatever “event” happened which resulted in all our calendars being dated from what’s supposed to be the year of Jesus’ birth, instead of him becoming another forgotten dead would-be Messiah, seem to have been obscured under a lot of “details” which may have been added later to make a more satisfying story. Mary Magdalene probably wasn’t the prostitute, or any of two or three other Mary’s who are wandering around in the Gospels, but there does seem to be some agreement that she was someone who had “demons”, which were “cast out” of her by Jesus. In other words, she may have been the sort of person who saw things and heard voices, and this charismatic person who may or may not have been explicitly claiming to be the Messiah, and the “Son of God” (whatever that originally meant), may have been able to provide her with some psychological comfort. Then, when he was killed, she came up with a story that he was really glorified and in some sense resurrected. She may have had some other witnesses to corroborate this (in Mark, three people find the “empty tomb”, but the gospels are notoriously contradictory on just who found what and when). Later, the emerging new religion decided that Jesus was by golly really truly resurrected, in the flesh (albeit maybe “glorified flesh”), and any old Gospels or epistles were apt to be tidied up to reflect what everybody was sure was the truth about the affair.

Who really decided this disgraced and executed outcast was actually miraculously restored to life; what did they mean by that; and how did they persuade everyone else (including people who never even knew Jesus, like Saul of Tarsus) to go along with it? Who knows?

Does all this really count as more convincing “smoke” than the beliefs of the Mormons or the Branch Davidians or the Falun Gong?

That was me.
And regarding Polycarp’s post, I agree that the LB crowd has aded a lot of extra foolishness to what C.S. Lewis called “mere Christianity.”

Polycarp, just a note: IMHO, your assertions regarding the apostles are taking what I consider a distressing turn. In multiple threads, you have asserted that the reliability, life-changes and willingness to die ostensibly evidenced by the apostles makes a skeptic’s dismissal of the resurrection as mythic a rather ridiculous “stretch”. At one time I believe you compared atheists who did not accept the resurrection to young-earth creationists. When you make these statements, someone will almost invariably point out other people who have claimed to have experienced various mystical experiences, have been willing to die and be persecuted for their beliefs, whose lives changed, and who seemed reliable. It is then asked why these are not seen as equally solid evidence to you. Or indeed, why a skeptic’s dismissal of the resurrection is any more deserving to be mocked than his or her dismissal of the Falun Gong. I cannot recall having seen evidence that showed that a 2000 year-old account of a handful of people should be taken more seriously than the accounts of the first Mormons or the Falun Gong or any others who have fiercely clung to their mystical beliefs.

I realize that you believe that you have personally experienced someone answering the description of Jesus, and so there is no need for you to take seriously any belief about God that does not accord with your experience. What I don’t understand is why you think it so ridiculous for skeptics to give the same weight to both eyewitness accounts of the resurrection and eyewitness accounts of other religion’s miracles. I don’t understand why you at times take us to task for disbelieving in the apostle’s accounts yet do not do so if we wish to disbelieve in other people’s accounts–the Mormons, the Falun Gong, the Branch Davidians, Heaven’t Gaters, etc. I realize you wish to witness here, but your reasoning seems to rest on the assumption that your religion is right, which is not an assumption shared by those you wish to convince. It is poor logic to expect them to give special credence to the beliefs of some people who were willing to die for their beliefs while dismissing others who did just the same.

PS–Oops, sorry, goboy. Mea culpa.

[Edited by Gaudere on 12-28-2000 at 04:17 PM]

We’re still waiting for you to tell us how Jesus was like Hillel.