Jews and Christians MUST believe in witches

Great Debates
21

Young padawan, you are yet young in the ways of the Force. While you are certainly correct in one aspect of your reasoning (that the ancient legends and contradictory stories of the Bible are mostly a load of superstitious hooey–Penn & Teller have a stronger word for it), your approach bears little subtlety and is unlikely to be taken seriously, as you have surely noticed.

Many people find a great deal of comfort in the Bible, concentrating on the admonitions of love and compassion and ignoring the “kill the witches” business. And really who can quarrel with that?

Use the Force (logic and critical thinking) and abandon the Dark Side (petty quibbling and nitpicking). Learn more about the Bible so that you can become a more adept Jedi. You cannot fight the Sith if you do not know their ways. Read some good books on Biblical history and criticism and brush up on your debating skills and come back when you are better armed. We need atheists, but informed ones who can argue well are even better.

22

22:18 Do not allow a sorceress to live.
22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.
22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a potion maker to live.
Four different wordings were found. As to the witch or sorceress wordings, the following:

Malleus Maleficarum:
The Second Vatican Council (1964 on), resided over by John Paul ll, apart from declaring evolution as fact in 1967, altered the horrific Hebrew Exodus 22:18 law in 1969. It now reads: “Put to death any woman who practices magic.” The infamous Hebrew religious Exodus 22:18 law in the Roman Catholic Church bible still carries a death penalty for women who practice magic.

Another version of the Hebrew Exodus 22:18 law in Roman Catholic Church bibles is: `You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.’ Thus, the horrific religious Exodus 22:18 was used as an authorisation by the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy to torture and murder women, remains non-rescinded.

The Exodus text can be counter-referenced to Leviticus.

Leviticus, Divination and Prophecy:

18:9 When you come to the land that God your Lord is giving you, do not learn to do the revolting practices of those nations.
18:10 Among you, there shall not be found anyone who passes his son or daughter through fire, who practices stick divination, who divines auspicious times, who divines by omens, who practices witchcraft,
18:11 who uses incantations, who consults mediums and oracles, or who attempts to communicate with the dead.
18:12 Anyone involved in these practices is repulsive to God, and it was because of repulsive practices such as these that God your Lord is driving out [these nations] before you.
18:13 You must [therefore] remain totally faithful to God your Lord.
18:14 The nations that you are driving out listen to astrologers and stick diviners, but what God has given you is totally different.
18:15 In your midst, God will set up for you a prophet like me from among your brethren, and it is to him that you must listen.
18:16 **This is a result of the request that you made of God your Lord at Horeb on the Day of Assembly, [when you] said, ‘We cannot listen to the voice of God our Lord any more! We cannot look at this great fire any more! We do not want to die!’ **

So, after about FIVE MINUTES of research, the whole thing really hinged around the worship of “false” gods. These gods were usually “attended” by witches, wizards, and potion makers (psychadelic trances maybe?). And, it was because the people themselves did not want “scary” signs and portents, so God said “Fine. Be that way. You want no signs from me, then you will get no signs from anyone, ever”

Here is a more fun one - Does it mean we must murder everyone we meet? :

Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side … and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.–Ex.32:27

23

What language was the original written in? Whose version of bible is it? Can anyone explain it to me? Most of it makes no sense except as a reference to the Rome of Nero’s time. What’s up with all that 666? Who shot J.R.? What’s in that essence? Honestly, the hell if I know.

24

Good sir, would you like to learn how to avoid suffering, by becoming one of the first to be eaten?

25

You Fundamentalist Cthulhuans are always posting witnesses where they don’t fit the topic! :stuck_out_tongue:

26

And anyway, the Old Ones will make sure you DO suffer, regardless of the order in which you’re eaten. Your one hope would be mass suicide as soon as you see the unspeakable horrors start to stir…

…unless…

…unless you send in for your copy of The Book of the SubGenius and enroll in J. R. “Bob” Dobbs’ proven program that will give you Eternal Life or Triple Your Money Back! Act now! X-Day has already happened but you can still take advantage of this incredible offer!

27

Wow, so much ignorance, so little space.

First, you ask how to identify a witch. I think you’d be better off asking what is a witch, how do you define one? If you take a cross cultural sampling you’d discover witches have the following qualities:

  1. Witches can be either male or female

  2. The witch is the opposite of what a society considers good or right, for example, witches practice incest or cannibalism

  3. The term ‘witch’ is a social category often used to blame others for one’s own misfortune

  4. Witches perform magical or supernatural feats. These include reports of flying through the air or changing into animals

  5. Witchcraft accusations can be anonymous, but they often fall upon people of low social status or those who are physically distant

  6. A witchcraft accusation is an action taken when there is a long standing animosity between two or more people. It moves the animosity from the private sphere to the public so that a resolution can be reached

However, in the verse you refer to, Exodus 22:18, the term ‘witch’ when translated from the Hebrew into modern English comes out as “a female whisperer of spells.” The term ‘witch,’ while it does convey the meaning, it isn’t really precise. It also doesn’t take into account the cultural context of the time and place. For many reasons, the Hebrews of that period believed that magic, other than practiced in the context of their own religious ceremonies was wrong and immoral. The Hebrew Bible is full of references to this. The Exodus 22:18 verse is simply one of many that condemns those who practice magic not officially sanctioned by the god of the Hebrews.

So ‘witch’ in the modern meaning of the word, as it is used across many cultures, is a poor translation and really inaccurate for understand the meaning of the verse.

I’m always amazed at how much atheists pay attention to the physical sciences, but practically ignore the social sciences. Especially regarding human motivation and actions. You really need to take some courses in comparative religion and anthropology before making more idiotic-sounding pronouncements.

28

I know of a number of people, many of whom are quite intelligent, that call themselves witches. In fact, there’s at least one on this board (actually, you all have her to thank for my being here). You would be hard-pressed to prove that they don’t exist.

Thank you, come again.

While there are obviously some Christians that are (cynically speaking) tantamount to sheep, and while there are obviously some that are most definitely skewed and strange in their beliefs (and make no secret of it, often pontificating their views from their soapboxes), that doesn’t mean that a great number of them don’t have their heads on straight and haven’t thought many things through.

The website religioustolerance.org estimates that there are some 2 billion Christians in the world. Surely with a sample size that large, you’re bound to have some weirdoes. If your sole agenda is to proselytize or brandish your propaganda, you’re in the wrong place. There are a great number of people here who espouse the same issues as you, but the ones that don’t probably aren’t going to be swayed by some silly technicalities. Forgive me if I’ve misjudged you, but it just seems we didn’t get off on the right foot. :slight_smile:

Being a critic or skeptic of a particular religion, or even of all religions, does not an atheist make.

And, no offense, but we have a great number of atheists on this board already. We don’t “need” anymore any more than we “need” any more fundies, snake handlers, Klingons, or anything else. :wink:

29

Three other possibilities for the translation of Hebrew “m’kishuf’a” aka “witches”- all valid linguistically & historically-

Drug-pushers- I have no problem executing major drug traffickers & pushers who target children.
Enchantresses- seducers of mind &/or body. They get a pass :wink:
“Canaanite-style” pagan priestesses (shrine harlots, child-sacrificers, demonized oracles & ritual abortionists). The child-sacrificers can take a ride lightnin’-ride on Ol’ Sparky w/o any tears shed by me. The others also get a pass.

Remember also, Israel viewed itself as the one nation with direct relational experience w/ the Most High God. Thus, while some things may have been tolerated by God among other nations, they were viewed as high treason in
Israel. Becoming a “m’kishuf’a” in ancient Israel was tantamount to being a Soviet spy in Cold War America. As to why the female gender was used in Exodus,
in Numbers, the pagan Midianites sent shrine harlots to infiltrate Israel. In Genesis 6, whoever the Sons of God were (angels or Godly Sethite men), their downfall came through their lust for women of another class (human or ungodly Cainite women). Btw, the male equivalent of “m’kishuf’a” were condemned in Deuteronomy 18:10, when the focus was on warning Israelites against false prophets who would try to usurp the heritage Moses has established.

30

Boy, this one was original.

31

I’m a devout Christian and not only do I believe in witches; one of them is my best friend and I’ve mentored another. As for how you recognize one in public, the ones I know tend to wear jewelry with pentacles on it, although not all the time. Far from not suffering one to live, I’m prepared to actively defend them, with my life if necessary and I count these two far better humans than some Christians I’ve known.

For the record, I also wear clothes of mixed fibers and have even made some. I am not silent in church – I’ve read lessons and sing alto. I don’t consider myself unclean while I’m menstruating and I don’t think a man who has sex with his wife while she’s menstruating should be shunned.

I’m a programmer and a very good one. If I were incapable of logic and reason, I wouldn’t be. My religious faith has provided me with tangible, real world benefits, including paying my rent when I hit a financial crisis, friendships I treasure greatly, and a chance to sing some truly glorious music I wouldn’t have come across otherwise. I suppose if I had to I could do without my religion. I suppose if I had to I could also do without eating chocolate. On the other hand, since both give me joy and I don’t use them to harm or bludgeon others (Freyr, you heathen, you must become a lover of Good Chocolate or you will suffer an eternity without the joy only Ghirardelli dark can bring!;)), I see no reason to do without either.

CJ

32

Begone, foul temptress! No! No! A thousand times no!

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

well…maybe…
:smiley:

33

Hmmmm. This thread died quick. How about them Red Sox.

34

They’re going to have a hell of a time repeating. I’m betting they don’t.

35

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.*

36

I’m a Witch and I believe that Jews and Christians exist. So there.

37

Said Catwoman to Batman, “Damn. Does that mean we have to fight now?” :smiley:

38

Well since you brought it up, my own humble O about slavery is it was a necessary ‘evil’ for modern society to evolve. Perhaps it would have been nice for God to teach us how to build a steam engine, but by taking the apple, we wanted to do things our way.

39

Wanted to do things our way…

That right there is one of the main lessons of the bible - that most people are too stubborn, too hard headed for their own good. They are bound and determined to shoot of their own foot. Sometimes it’s almost as if the God of the Old Testament was the exasperated parent.

He throws up his hands and says “You want a king, even though I told you they are trouble? Fine. Have your king”.

He says “I’ve given you everythng you need, now you want Caanan? Fine. Have fun with it”

You are scared by my signs and works and the pillar of fire that guided you? Fine. No more signs".

He says “Leave that tree alone”. Then he tries to give them an out, to admit what happened. It turns into “He did it! No! She made me do it”.

Maybe that is why he isn’t very visible anymore, he’s just fed up.

40

Clearly, you don’t believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god, which is fine by me. An omniscinet god would’ve understood the long-term damage he was creating by establishing such a law in the first place. Most Christians tink the Bible is the be-all-end-all of morality, but I’m glad you can see past that.