I take it from your post that you also believe the Bible is a pile of crap and that Jews were stupid for believing in magic. Your little diversion doesn’t detract from your own quote: witch=female whisperer of spells.
Just because slavery was used to advance modern technology doesn’t mean technology couldn’t have come about without it!
There sure are a lot of definitions of “witch” floating around here! It sure makes me think that “God” did a poor job of communicating to his people! When I said, “I don’t believe in witches” I meant I don’t believe in "evil female spell-casters with super-natural powers. I don’t know if you’re a Wiccan, but I certainly believe in Wiccans. I also believe many Wiccans like to pretend they have a lot more power than they actually do.
Sigh.
I’ll try to do this from the Jewish POV as painlessly as possible.
Witches are not the Wiccans of today. Witches were people back in biblical times who excercised supernatural powers. It should be noted that, in all probability, this art is lost today and so, there are few, if any, witches.
In any event, even if there was a genuine bona-fide witch in existence today, we would not execute him/her for various reasons:
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First of all, if the witch was not Jewish, then s/he cannot be executed because there is no prohibition on witchcraft for non-Jews.
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Even if the witch was Jewish, there is no Jewish court in existence today that is authorized to administer the death penalty. As such, without such a court, a witch couldn’t be put to death anyway.
You’re entitled to your beliefs. If you’re genuinely interested in my position, you’re welcome to it.
Again, you’re entitled to your beliefs. I would disagree with you on several fronts, however.
Firstly, the Bible is a product of it’s times. It was composed at a time when slavery was permitted and common. While I also believe that the Torah’s laws are binding on us (Jews) even today, it must also be considered that it had to make sense to people of 3000 years ago as well as the people of today.
One could make the same statement with regard to the U.S. Constitution. After all, the Constitution not only allowed slavery to exist when it was ratified, Congress was specifically prohibited from preventing the importation of slaves for the first twenty years. However, without that concession to the times, the United States would not exist today. There is no way that the thirteen states would have come together without that concession.
Secondly, just because something is permitted in the Bible, that doesn’t mean that we, as a society, can’t outgrow our need for it. IOW, just because slavery is “on the books” in Torah law, that doesn’t mean that it HAS to be allowed. Case in point: polygyny. Polygyny was allowed under Jewish law until about a thousand years ago (for Ashkenazim) and is still permitted today (for Sephardim). But even so, it was an extremely rare practice, despite it being “on the books.”
I’ll agree that some horrible things have been done in the name of religion, but OTOH, many good things have come out of religion as well. Much of the abolitionist movement of the 1800s came out of the churches.
Sigh.
Firstly, the verse in Exodus 20 is not “Thou shalt not kill (lo taharog),” but “Thou shalt not murder lo tirtzach).” Not all killing is murder. There are some killings that are not murder. These would include self-defense, war, some police killings and (despite your personal opposition to it) the death penalty.
Secondly, the fact that the death penalty for numerous crimes is given right after a commandment not to murder (or even kill, if you will) should tell any freethinker (i.e. not those brainwashed with an agenda) that these are exceptions to the rule. There are many examples of this. Want another? One cannot marry his brother’s wife. Yet, if a man dies childless, his brother and wife have the option of getting married. It’s not a contradiction… it’s an exception to the rule.
Zev Steinhardt
No and no and no.
Go back and read my post. No, I don’t believe the Bible (both the Hebrew and Christian versions) is a load of crap. It’s many things, history, poetry, theology with a thread of divine inspiration running thru it, also. But it’s hardly a load of crap. It’s influence on Western culture cannot be underestimated.
The point I was making is that the Jews of that time period believed that the only magic that should be practiced should originate thru their god. Any other type of magic was wrong and immoral. Hence the many injunctions against spell casters, diviners, astrologers, etc. Try reading Magic, Science, Religion and the Scope of Rationality by Stanley Tambiah for a full treatment of this.
Your thread title states that Jews and Christians MUST believe in witches, yet you don’t define what a witch is, hence my list. The translation of the original Hebrew shows that their idea of a witch bears only a passing resemblence to the modern meaning of the term. Should modern Jews and Christians “believe” in something that is a bad translation of an outdated cultural concept that has little bearing in the modern world? I don’t know. You started this thread, you explain it.
My point is that no true, benevolent god would condone slavery EVER even in ancient times. Some people think that we couldn’t have advanced to where we are today without slavery. I disagree. We’ve accomplished some amazing technological and archetectural feats in the 20th century without slavery. Maybe it would have taken us a bit longer to get to this point, but no matter. Slavery is EVIL. The fact that “God” in the Bible condoned it makes the biblical god evil. And the fact that “God” made a man have to choose between freedom without his wife and children or a LIFETIME of slavery with them makes him sadistically evil in my opinion (Exodus 21).
Thanks for the suggested reading, I’ll check it out. I just think it’s unfortunate that so many people want to enforce their belief in the Bible on others, especially when it’s so hard to understand and people interpret it in so many different ways. And even today there is no one “modern” definition of witch. When I say there is no such thing as a witch meaning “evil female spell-caster” inevitably some Wiccan comes along to set me straight. Whatever the case, “God” in the Bible is advocating the death penalty which is pure evil in my opinion. I think the day will eventually come when it is completely abolished if we don’t destroy ourselves first.
Even if slavery is evil, and God knew it was evil, remember that the Israelites at Sinai still had to agree to the laws that God gave to Moses. Under your scenario, something like this would happen:
Moses:…And finally, no Israelite may own a slave.
Israelite 1: Give up our slaves! Are you crazy?!
Israelite 2: We already gave up bacon! No way I’m giving up my servants!
Israelite 3: Fuck it, I’m going back to Egypt! At least they knew how society should work.
Israelite 4: <smacks I 3> Dummy! You were a slave in Egypt!
Israelite 3: Exactly! See, they wouldn’t do anything as stupid as giving up slaves.
God: <sigh> Maybe the Hittites need a God…
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather die then see people I love suffer. I want to be first!
Holy Graham Chapman, Batman… it is the “Argument Clinic” sketch!
Look, dude, we get it, you have concluded belief in the God of the Bible is a Bad Thing. Good for ya. And I have concluded the same thing about voting for George Bush. That and two bucks gets us a Grande Latte, not a Great Debate, OK?
You obviously don’t understand the concept of “slavery” as it’s discussed in that chapter and with regard to Jewish law. Allow me to make some points.
Firstly, the type of slavery that you are talking about (the type mentioned in Exodus 21) is not slavery in the form that you and I have grown accustomed to talking about. That type of “slavery” was, in fact, more like an indentured servitude.
Firstly, the term of the servitude was only six years. After that, he was to be set free.
Secondly, as codified in Jewish law, such servants had to enjoy of quality of life (aside from the work aspect) at least as good as the master himself. If the master had only one pillow, for example, it had to be given to the servant. The servant had to be fed foods at least as good as the food that the servant himself received. And, in addition, the master has to support his wife and children who are not his servants. Again, not similar to the type of slavery which you are talking about.
Thirdly, the servant had the rights to his own property. Again, not really slavery in the sense which we have come to know it.
Fourthly, he (or his relatives) could purchase his freedom for a pro-rated share of his purchase price. This could be done even against the master’s wishes. This, too, is not similar to the slavery that you and I have come to know.
Fifthly, one could only end up in this type of servitude in one of two ways: (1) he sells himself or (2) he sold as a penalty by the courts for theft where he does not have the ability to pay back the theft. IOW, no one really ended up in such servitude completely against their will.
Sixthly, and perhaps lastly, the “wife and children” mentioned in the verse are those of his servants that his master gives him. If he had his own wife and children beforehand (or if he marries a wife on his own while in servitude), then he certainly does not have to “choose” them when his period of servitude is up.
To sum up, the slavery that is mentioned in Exodus 21 to which you are referring is not really slavery as we currently understand the term. It is far more like an indentured servitude than slavery.
Zev Steinhardt
An argument could be made that you’re doing the same thing here, with atheism, loudly and obnoxiously proclaiming it and belittling anyone who believes otherwise. I have very good, personal reasons for following the religion I do. I detest people who proclaim all religions are superstitious hogwash without trying to understand why people believe or follow a particular faith.
The term and social concept of a witch is dificult to pin down. I’ve made of study of this in grad school and can testify that its meaning is very specific to a cultural context. It requires understanding the culture as a whole rather than the specific cultural category.
I agree that the death penalty is abhorent, but that’s a modern distinction. Given the time and place that the Hebrew bible was written, it does make a certain amount of sense. The people of that time were nomadic pastoralists. Detaining a person who was a danger to themselves and society at large is a problem. Being a mobile society, simply building a jail and locking them up isn’t an option, it’s too easy for them to escape. Hence, killing them might be the only alternative readily available. As dispicable as that is to our modern sensibilities, it does make sense for the culture in that time and place. Don’t be so quick to judge others by our western values. Didn’t someone once say, “Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged?”
Maybe it would be good to remind you, IAMMYOWNGOD, that the vast majority do NOT want to enforce their own belief, view, or interpretation on anyone. The ones who do want to, are the minority. They are (in my opinion) the Lunatic Fringe. Unfortunately, this same minority makes the most noise and gets the most attention.
Could you expand on that?