Following the Bible(?!?!?)

The BBQ Pit
1

I posted this to the Dr. Laura thread, but I found the contents of the faux letter so interesting that I figured I’d start a new thread for it.

My pal Pepper sent me this today…

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination(Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

And somewhere in Deuteronomy, it says men with crushed testicles can’t get into heaven.

Patty

2

Well, why is this in this forum?

I mean, yeah, i can see the irony, but shouldn’t you at least try to provoke these cocksucking Christians with a few choice words, goddammit??

:stuck_out_tongue:

3

tell your friend pepper to go ahead and follow through.
and sell the daughter to me. how much?

4

I posted this topic in The BBQ Pit because it didn’t seem to belong in any of the others. Please excuse me if I get posting procedures wrong - as you can see in the left hand column, I’m rather new to this.

Just some added food for thought - one of the reasons I enjoyed the Dr. laura letter was it illustrates how even “good” Christians can’t possibly follow EVERYTHING the Bible says, therefore the hard core believers have to be flexable and allow for different interpretations and practices. In short, they have to learn to be tolerant.

The other thing that bothers me about people who claim to follow the Bible verbatum is they seem to forget they’re reading a translation of a translation (of a translation?), and so mistakes can be made. For example, the Red Sea is supposidly a mistranslation of the Reed (sp?) Sea, which has a low tide so low the water seems to “part.” So any claims that what they see written (in English) is the final word on anything falls apart.

So you can understand why I get rather annoyed by self-rightous folks like the Rev. Fred Phelps who use the Bible to say and do some REAL nasty stuff to other people. Folks like him are either reading the text VERY selectively or they’re not reading it at all.

Patty

5

Actually, he might say some pretty nasty stuff, but at least he’s not a hypocrite. According to the Bible, homosexuals are going to Hell - there’s little debate there. Phelps has taken it upon himself to save those people from such an awful fate. In his mind, he’s doing the most unselfish thing in the world, and the most noble at that - a true Christian needs to do everything he or she can to prevent someone from that eternal fate. I mean, would you want anyone to literally burn in fire for the rest of eternity? Of course not. And neither do they. So he’s out there spreading “the ugly truth” about the consequences of homosexual behavior. He feels shock tactics are the best way to get across to people that the fate that awaits them is a nasty one.

Now, he comes off as a blithering, hateful bigot in the process, but hey, it’s the price you pay when you’re out saving souls.

Esprix

6

Perhaps this is the passage Patty is thinking of.

7

I thought the “Reed Sea” theory was discredited by most Biblical scholars. There was a group trying to suggest that there was no miraculous parting of the waters, but that a strong wind pushed the shallow reed sea waters apart. The theory also suggested the reed sea was only about a foot deep or so. Highly unlikely that the entire Egyptian contingent would have drowned in wind-blown 1-2 feet of water.

Any Old Testament scholars want to comment?

8

Most of this was covered in “Dear Dr. Laura - would she answer”.

To recap the Jewish view, however (since Dr. Laura is speaking as a Jew):

** Sacrifices **

Sacrifices are not offered today because the place to offer them (the Temple in Jerusalem) no longer exists. So, the first question is moot. You cannot sacrifice your bull to the Lord.

** Selling daughters **

A) This was usually done with marriage to the master as the ultimate objective. If the master or his son did not marry her, she would have to be set free. This, in essence, is not much worse than an arranged marriage.

B) More importantly, also not done today. There is a Talmudic dictum of * dina d’malchusa dina * which states that Jews must obey the laws of the land. Since slavery is illegal in the U.S., Jews cannot, by Jewish law, own slaves. So this question, too, is moot.

** Women’s menstruation **

This applies between a man and his wife.

** Mexican/Canadian slaves **

See item B in selling daughters, above.

** Working on Sabbath **

A) This only applies to Jews. There is no problem with Gentiles working on the Sabbath.

B) A person could only be put to death, in Jewish law, by a duly empowered court (of which none exist today). Since there is no Jewish death penalty in force today, this question, too, is moot.

** Shellfish **

A) Again, kosher rules only apply to Jews.

B) We don’t compare abominations.

** Altar and eyesight **

A) Only applies to Jews

B) Only applies to * kohanim * (Jews of Aaronic descent).

C) Only blindness is a problem, not bad eyesight.

D) The point is moot since the Altar no longer exists.

And lastly…

** Crushed testicles **

It says that a man with crushed testicles cannot “enter the congregation of God.” This has nothing to do with heaven. It has to do with the ability to marry within the Jewish community. Proof? An Egyptian cannot “enter the congregation of God.” until the third generation. Is God commanding us to keep him out of heaven for three generations? I don’t think so. It means that he and his children cannot marry into the congregation, but his grandchildren can.

Zev Steinhardt

9

Thanks to Zev and…oh, dear, I didn’t write your name down. Sorry! Thanks to both of you for offering more incite to these Biblical lines. It supports the overall gist of the letter - just because some part of the text says “X” doesn’t mean that “X” is still applicable 2,000 years later (give or take a few years). And it certainly shouldn’t be used to justify a public berating of somebody, as Dr. Laura and Rev. Fred Phelps do.

I disagree with whoever said (dang, I should’ve written names down) Phelps is just trying to save people’s souls. I’ve seen this man on TV three times and every time the man struck me as a vile, angry man who viciously lashes out at anyone - gay or not - who disagrees with his world view. On one of these programs, a female politican in his home state said he kept sending her harasing faxes. I think she was the one he kept calling a “bull dyke.” Even if there was a reason to try to “save” a person from being gay (which I concider BS - I didn’t “chose” to be straight nor can anyone change that part of my hardwiring, no matter what their motives), his vicious methods couldn’t possibly be the way to “help” a person.

Patty

10

I know I am repeating myself, but for the dozenth time, Christians are exempt from OT Law, including Lev18:22. Got that “Mrs S, PhD”?
But I really cannot figure out what LS’s beliefs are, she talks Christian, but her book on the 10C has a very Jewish point of view. Does anybody know? :confused:

And sorry, esprix, you’re not doomed to Hell just because you’re gay, or because some radio “personality” sez so. Just like any other “sinner”, you can be saved by Belief, that is,- if you believe in that sort of thing. :smiley: But if you are not “saved”, I’m sure “satan” or “asmodaus” could get you a nice position, down there. :smiley:

11

Well, that’s kinda because she is Jewish.

12

Thanks, Sterling: Well, if she is, she should know that the OT Law applies ONLY to Jews, and not to gentiles, and that it is generally considered incorrect to attack gentiles on the basis of their not following the Law. The Law was meant for the People, ONLY. Am I right, CMK?

13

Well, not really…

While Judaism does hold that only Jews are required to observe the commandments, there are 7 commandments that non-Jews are required to follow. One of them is the category of forbidden sexual relations. This includes several forbidden relations, among them homosexual.
Zev Steinhardt

14

Zev: Now, I have been real nice, but 1st, I can read the Bible, too, and I can find nothing in the Law that applies it to Gentiles, there are quite a few references to the contrary. Second, Christ died for OUR sins (and, boy are there a lot of 'em), and ever since then, Christians have been exempt from OT Law. I can quote you from the NT for this. I beleive you are possibly talking about the “Noahide Laws”, or some thing like that (I’m sure my spelling’s wrong)but those Laws are NOT in the Bible. Lastly, I respect your religion very much, but I do not expect you to follow the Moral precepts of mine, or Ghandi’s, or Buddhas, or Shintoism, or whatever.

If I’m wrong, and you can show me something in the OT Law that says ALL peoples should abide by this, I’ll take that part back. But when G-D gave the 10C to Moses, they were ESPECIALLY for you, and your “chosen” people.

15

First off I would to complement the posters on this topic and other related subjects. The SDMB is very fortunate to have such a group of educated people. My knowledge of the Bile is limited compared to others on these topics but I would like for someone to comment on this particular incident in the book of Numbers.

Moses on God’s instruction destroyed the Midianite people. Moses gave orders to slaughter every Midian man, woman and child and was furious that his men took female captives instead of killing them. The surviving women and children were brought back to the encampment and Moses gave the command that all the males and nonvirgins were to be killed and the virgins to be given to his soldiers as war booty. Do I have the basic facts of this story correct?

Some have criticized the poster of the Dr. Laura parody for taking biblical occurrences out of context so my question is what kind of context could in any way justify the above incident in the book of Numbers. Moses is a war criminal and nothing absolutely nothing in my mind could justify this behavior. Moses is a hero of both Christians and Jews, how can this be? The God who gave Moses these instructions is just as bad.

I would like the religious experts in this group to please make me understand how you can worship such a God or hold Moses up as a hero in light on the Midian slaughter.

16

Daniel:

First of all, you are correct, those seven laws are the “Noahide Laws.” The fact that they would apply even to Gentiles is Talmudically derived. It is not explicitly written anywhere in the Bible.

Secondly, while Gentiles are expected to live by these laws (which most people in civilized countries do, anyway), the only place these laws were enforced was in ancient Israel, when there was a court system empowered to mete out punishments to violaters. No one else in any other part of the world, or in any other time in history, has been punished by the courts for violating these laws.

Do these laws apply today as well? Halachicly (according to Jewish law), yes. As, however, the only authority to judge compliance or non-compliance is God, I leave it up to Him.

As for attacking people because they don’t follow the law: I don’t agree with that, with one exception. The exception is this: One of the Noahide Laws is to set up a system of civil and criminal laws and courts and to live by them. In other words, God expects us to act civilized. If people break those laws (muderers, rapists, tax cheats), I think that going after them in accordance with the (civil) law is perfectly justified. I don’t think vigilantism is acceptable under any circumstances.

I believe you that you can quote from the NT that Jesus died for our sins. As I’m sure you know, I don’t put any authority in the NT. Of course, I don’t expect you to put any authority in the Talmud either.

Zev Steinhardt

17

Zev: unless I am incorrect, the Talmud is not supposed to be divinely inspired/written like the Torah. I assign the same weight to the Torah as I do to the Gospels*, ie, as I respect all faiths, I assume their “Divine” books are correct, for them, at least. The Talmud, in my mind is not more or less “inspired” than the collected Papal bulls, ie, written by men of great faith, but not by G-D. I will not attack the Torah, nor the Gospels,nor the Koran, but I have no problem argueing with a Papal dictate, or a Jewish Custom, or the ravings of an Ayatollah.

Even tho I would not expect you to follow the Gospels, I would expect the same respect, and the same for the Koran, and the writings of Buddha, and similar inpired books.

Icerigger: it is too easy to judge the Great men of the past by the norms of today. Things were different, then, no UN, no USA as “world cop”. The Midianites would just have happily returned the favor.
*please note I consider only the Gospels themselves to be divinely inspired, not the letters of Paul.

18

Daniel:

** Re: The Talmud and Divine Inspiration **

Orthodox Judaism believes that there was an oral tradition that was handed to Moses together with the written text. This oral tradition, coming from God, was certainly Divine. This oral tradition was handed down orally from one generation to the next. Eventually, some of the teachings became forgotten or confused. Much of what the Talmud is is the discussions of the Rabbis over a period of centuries determining which of the oral traditions that arrived down to their times are the correct ones.

As for respect for other faiths:

I certainly did not mean to offend you in anything I said (and if I did, I certainly apologize). However, that being said, while I can admire the NT and some of the ideals preached therein, I personally don’t put any weight into the belief that Jesus died for our sins. That doesn’t mean that I don’t respect you for your belief in this system.
I wouldn’t make light of your beliefs or disparage them in any way. But I personally don’t believe in it and I personally don’t put any authority in the NT.

I appreciate that you put the same weight in the Gospels as you do to the Torah. However, I cannot do so, simply for the reason that to do so, I would have to believe that the Gospels are divinely inspired (which I do not).

In any event, I certainly don’t want to offend.

Zev Steinhardt

19

No, rabbi*, you did not offend. You are a scholar & a gentleman. The only thing that ticked me was a belief that someone needs to be concerned about what ANOTHER religion considers a sin.

  • used out of respect for your knowlege, not because I belive you are a priest, after all, they call Jesus “rabbi”, too.
20

I think you’re in the wrong place. Esprix’s thread is promoting the above described activity.