JFK conspiracy... yes or no?

[42fish]

@Crotalus

The first thing that began to change my mind was a book called Best Evidence, by David Lifton. His theory of the assassination involves the idea that Kennedy’s body was altered surgically after death, on the plane or during the ride from Andrews AFB to the hospital where the autopsy was performed. Reading this book made me realize that Lifton was basically nuts.

Hey, I was going to post almost the same thing!

(Coincidence or conspiracy? You make the call!)

[Max_Torque]

Okay, let’s just give ALL the conspiracy theories equal credit. From The Onion, November 22, 1963 edition: Kennedy Slain By CIA, Mafia, Castro, LBJ, Teamsters, Freemasons – President Shot 129 Times From 43 Different Angles

The shooting began at 12:30 PM and lasted until 12:43 PM…Preliminary reports indicate that hitmen for the Giancana crime syndicate fired from a nearby grassy knoll, CIA agents fired from an office building slightly off the parade route, Cuban nationals fired from an overpass overlooking Dealey Plaza, an elite hit squad working for Teamsters President Jimmy Hoffa fired from perches atop an oak tree, a “lone nut” fired from the Texas Book Depository, a shadow-government sharp-shooting team fired from behind a wooden fence, a consortium of jealous husbands fired from an estimated 13 sites on the sidewalk along the route, a hitman working for Johnson fired from a sewer grate over which the limousine passed, and Texas Gov. John Connally lunged at the president from within the limousine itself, slitting the president’s throat with a combat knife.

[Shodan]

Massive numbers of factual errors suffuse the book, which make it a veritable minefield. Random samples are the following: […] The wounded James Tague stood twenty feet east, not under the triple underpass.

James Tague was not planning to see Kennedy (Marrs, 60). Tague had planned to drive downtown to meet his girlfriend (and future wife) for lunch. He was driving east on Commerce street, the southernmost of the three streets which go under the triple underpass. Nearing Dealey Plaza, Tague came upon traffic caused by the presidential motorcade, and **was forced to stop his car halfway under the triple underpass. He soon “got out of his car and stood by the bridge abutment” **(Testimony of James Tague - Warren Commission, 553).

Cite.

100 percent of the witness testimony and physical evidence exclude Oswald from carrying the rifle to work that day disguised as curtain rods.

He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know…

Cite.

Posner manipulates with words to concoct a case against Oswald as with Linnie Mae Randle, who swore the package, as Oswald allegedly carried it, was twenty-eight inches long, far too short to have carried a rifle. He grasped its end, and it hung from his swinging arm to almost touch the ground. Posner converts this to “tucked under his armpit, and the other end did not quite touch the ground”(p. 225). […]

Wes Frazier testified that Oswald carried the package under his arm, not swinging by his side.

he states that, under the name of Osborne, Oswald picked up leaflets he distributed from the Jones Printing Company and that the “receptionist” identified him. She in fact said that Oswald did not pick up the leaflets as the source that Posner cites indicates.

BOCHAN: It seems too, that the receptionist had a different recollection than you did of what that note said.

HOSTY: Well, she has a certain recollection and I do.

You know, Shanklin doesn’t really deny giving the order - he said ‘I can’t remember it.’ And he said ‘if the note had been what Nanny Lee Fenner said, I would have definitely remembered it. But if it had been what Hosty and Howe said, I might not have remembered it.’

BOCHAN: Well, yes, because she said it was a threat to
blow up the FBI building …

HOSTY: Yes. And also she claims that she showed it to the assistant agent in charge, Clark, and he looked at it and said, ‘oh there’s nothing to it.’ Now if it had been a threat like that, would he have said that?

BOCHAN: Probably not.

HOSTY: So there’s three people now that, of course she was, well, I’m trying to be charitable. She was heavily medicated at the time she made the statement.

Cite.

Regards,
Shodan

[Bryan_Ekers]

@CurtC

There are so many possible answers here [to why Oswald didn’t take the allegedly easier head-on shot] it’s impossible to say. Maybe he didn’t like the shot like hansel mentioned, or maybe Oswald was just not quite ready when the limo came around the previous corner and needed a little more time. We don’t know.

Heck, many CT’ers maintain that Oswald’s rifle was a piece of junk (and thus couldn’t be the murder weapon). What if Oswald tried the head-on shot, had a misfire and needed a few seconds to clear it, by which time the limo had turned the corner?

Personally, I’d rather take the shot after the turn. Head-on, the limo’s windshield and that bubble-top crossbar are in the way.

[dropzone]

From Illuminatus!

@John Dillinger

Jesus Christ and his black bastard brother Harry, how the fuck many people does it take to kill a President these days?

[CurtC]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Here’s a sample of the kind of thing I’ve found when looking for critiques of Case Closed:

The wounded James Tague stood twenty feet east, not under the triple underpass.

That’s a factual error? It’s a nitpick about how something is described! OK, so if that’s first on the list of factual errors in Posner’s book, that’s a good demonstration that Posner got it right.

A tiny fragment, not a bullet, entered Connally’s thigh.

That’s just wrong - the bullet caused a 2 cm hole in his thigh. The fragment was tiny and could not have caused that.

For example, 100 percent of the witness testimony and physical evidence exclude Oswald from carrying the rifle to work that day disguised as curtain rods.

What the hell? What testimony excludes a rifle being in the bag?

[Crotalus]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I agree wholeheartedly with this.I’m just not sure that’s true about Posner - at least not from what I’ve read. I have not yet read Case Closed. I have read a number of critiques that make me somewhat dubious about how well Posner mastered any bias, and how comprehensively he conducted his research or as you suggest, considered alternatives.

Here’s a sample of the kind of thing I’ve found when looking for critiques of Case Closed:

From: Review of Gerald Posner, Case Closed, by Wrone

And just for grins, here’s something new I’d never heard before about the backyard photographs, which suggests that the margins of the papers in the photo are quite a bit larger than the actual papers, and appear to be more consistent with the width of standard newspapers at the time.

New Analysis of Oswald’s Backyard Photo – JFK Assassination, page 1

Hentor, the critique you quoted there is fairly typical of the attacks on Case Closed, and is very biased and untrue.

As an example, the statement that the Warren Commission had no investigators. OK, they had people called assistant counsels. These were people who traveled around the country taking witness testimony and otherwise investigating things.

Another - James Tague testified to the commission in July of 1964 that he stopped his car under the triple overpass and stood right by it. Transcript here. I think he has since changed his story. One of the common methods of the Posner bashers and CTers in general is to latch onto any version of any witness’s story that suits them, ignoring or discounting statements by the same person that they don’t like. Often, the story they like was told long after the original testimony that they didn’t like.

The most ridiculous statement in the quote is this one: For example, 100 percent of the witness testimony and physical evidence exclude Oswald from carrying the rifle to work that day disguised as curtain rods.

There is a bunch of witness testimony about the bag. Folks who deny this are lying, and to say that it excludes the rifle from being in the bag requires that one only accept the lowest estimates of the size of the bag that witnesses made. A summary of the bag evidence is here.

ETA: I have never knowingly met or otherwise associated with 42fish.

[42fish]

@CurtC

What the hell? What testimony excludes a rifle being in the bag?

By the way, do the conspiracy theorists explain just what happened to Oswald’s curtain rods? I’m pretty sure none of the people who saw him leaving the Book Depository (or at other points during his trip back to his apartment) describe him as taking a long bag with him.

[gonzomax]

@kidchameleon

Whoa. Are there people who think Ted Kennedy killed her to cover up the plot to kill his brother?

Not here. we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Robot_Arm]

@Max_Torque

Okay, let’s just give ALL the conspiracy theories equal credit. From The Onion, November 22, 1963 edition: Kennedy Slain By CIA, Mafia, Castro, LBJ, Teamsters, Freemasons – President Shot 129 Times From 43 Different Angles

There’s also Who Killed JFK Today? from a sketch comedy show that used to run in Seattle. It was a game show in which the contestants each had their own theory of the Kennedy assassination and were quized about it. (Link is to a script, not a video.)

The character of Phil was played by Bill Nye.

[Cisco]

@Crotalus

Folks like ivan astikov serve to confirm my belief. There is no end to the evidence that the CT believers will believe anything, as long as it’s not the Warren Commission. I feel pretty confident in believing whatever they are on the other side of.

He’s the same way about 9/11. Seeing ivan come in here and support JFK nuttery is probably the single most unsurprising thing I’ve ever encountered on the SDMB.

[Jackmannii]

@Crotalus

The “shooter’s nest” is enclosed in a glass or Plexiglas room. You can see the actual windows, but you can’t get into a position that will allow you to see the relevant part of the street from those windows.

When did they add this enclosure? It wasn’t there when I visited years ago.

[Crotalus]

@Jackmannii

When did they add this enclosure? It wasn’t there when I visited years ago.

I know it was there when I was there in late 1999.

[Max_Torque]

@Robot_Arm

There’s also Who Killed JFK Today? from a sketch comedy show that used to run in Seattle. It was a game show in which the contestants each had their own theory of the Kennedy assassination and were quized about it. (Link is to a script, not a video.)

The character of Phil was played by Bill Nye.

As I recall, they did that same sketch on Almost Live!, which starred Nye. The winning theory was that Kennedy was killed by a tiger.

And on edit, it appears your link is a script of the very skit I was thinking of! It made it to Comedy Central some time back in the 90s.

[ivan_astikov]

@Cisco

He’s the same way about 9/11. Seeing ivan come in here and support JFK nuttery is probably the single most unsurprising thing I’ve ever encountered on the SDMB.

Next to you popping in any conspiracy-related thread and snarking as if you already know all the facts.

[DocCathode]

For a serious listing of various Kennedy CT’s, I recommend Paradox Press’ Big Book Of Conspiracies.

[Algorithm]

@ivan_astikov

Next to you popping in any conspiracy-related thread and snarking as if you already know all the facts.

No, Cisco only claims to know some facts, implied and evidenced by the fact that his posts in conspiracy-related threads actually contain facts. Contrast to your posts, which do not contain factual information but wild speculation and “questions” but lack substance.

[42fish]

@ivan_astikov

So, does anyone know if the driver was questioned about discharging his firearm?

Come to think of it, I don’t think anyone asked Jackie Kennedy or Governor and Mrs Connolly if they drew and fired weapons, either. Damn, that Warren Commission really was slipshod.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Can anyone prove the car itself wasn’t KITT in his youth?

[CurtC]

If we’re listing out some of the wilder JFK ideas, there is one that his death was accidental, but the conspiracy existed to cover up the government’s involvement. You see, after Oswald’s shot that hit JFK and Conally, Secret Service agent Hickey, riding in the car behind Kennedy’s limo, accidentally shot the AR-15 he was holding, and the shot happened to hit Kennedy right in the head. Damn the luck!