JFK conspiracy... yes or no?

Great Debates
101

Heck, I can top that. Just follow the principle of “cui bono?” Most people that do that think about the military-industrial complex and the escalation in Vietnam. No, Kennedy was in on that.

But what was the other major initiative of Johnson’s administration? The one that everyone thought would never happen in a hundred years? The one that suddenly moved ahead as a response to Kennedy’s tragic death?

That’s right. Martin Luther King arranged to have Kennedy assassinated in order to get civil rights legislation passed.

102

And who are we missing in your little list? Rather convenient that you didn’t mention that the president might have drawn his own gun and blew his own head off, now isn’t it? :dubious:

103

Lone nut.

Having known Steve Witt for a while now it’s hilarious to read some of the things that are written about him. Funny, too, he has his own IMDB page.

104

They were taken away by government agents and secretly hung.

105

Oh…just…booooooooooooooooooooo.

:smack:

106

This deserves a nomination!

107

loved this line.

OK, FTR, I have never heard of what happened to the supposed curtain rods. So, if that’s what you think I’m hanging on for my CT, it’s not.

There are just too many questions by people who were there. After the shots, you see a motorcycle cop run up the grassy knoll, not to mention a number of other people. Years later, that cop still believes something went on up there. So do a lot of other folks that were in DP at the time of the shooting.

I know there are others who said that they heard/saw shots coming from TSBD, but that doesn’t mean shots couldn’t have come from other places, Like the Dal-Tex building directly behind, or the grassy knoll.

I’ve also seen pictures supposedly taken at Parkland of the limo and you can clearly see a crease in the windshield chrome on the inside of the car. That tells me that at least one more shot from behind missed (maybe it tells you something different).

The parkland doctors all stated that the wound to his throat was an entrance wound when they saw it, and said it was only widened to open up his airway.

Whether or not you believe a Government-sponsored conspiracy existed or not is one thing. To think that this guy was killed by one shooter from behind is something else.

Finally, let me ask about the magic bullet, WCE 399. The metallurgical study showed that the fragments that came out of Connelly’s body
a) did not come from the bullet found on his gurney
b) added up to weigh more than the bullet that was found could have possibly lost
c) looked like a bulled shot in water and recovered from water. A bullet shot in the wrist of a cadaver looked like a bullet should look. Pushed back and flattened at the point of contact.

So how does this one bullet create all of these wounds and exit perfectly?

I read somewhere (can’t remember which source, but will find it if necessary), that leads brought to the WC leading away from LHO were summarily dismissed. The quote from the WC person (I need to look up his name) said “We are trying to close doors, not open new ones.” Makes sense if you are trying to pin this on a lone nut, and help the country start healing. But I wouldn’t call the WCR an investigative blueprint or how-to. So at the very least, I think the government tried to wrap things up as quickly as possible after the shooting.

108

Well then, viva la fuckin’ revolucion, we can’t stand for that.

109

Then what’s your theory? Post it. And watch it get torn apart by the same standards you’ve used. You say you’ve got three witnesses that back your theory up? Well, I’ve got three hundred witnesses who prove it’s wrong. You say you’ve got a scientist who has evidence. Well, I’ve got a hundred scientists who have counter-evidence. You say there’s an inconsistency in the offical explanation. Post your explanation and we’ll see if it all holds together.

Hell, I’ll give Jim Garrison credit for that at least. He was willing to put up his own theory as an alternative to the Warren Ciommission’s report. Garrison said it was a homosexual conspiracy - a bunch of gay men who got together and killed the President for a “thrill”.

110

Can I ask you for a cite for this? I read the links provided at the beginning of this thread, and I need something more. I don’t remember reading this anywhere else, and although Shaw was supposedly gay, I don’t remember ever hearing that Garrison stated that this was his theory. Any other sources besides the one linked to? Is this theory, for instance, in the official transcripts of the Clay Shaw Trial?

No need to get grumpy. I’m sure it will get torn apart. As someone upthread said, it is easy to find someone that saw/heard what fits into your own personal theory. I don’t think that serves much of a purpose. I am genuinely interested in how so many people, some of whom I consider intelligent posters, have come to the conclusion that LHO was the lone gunman. I’ve received some of that in this thread, and that’s good. I’m certainly open to the possibility, and some people have given me some sources that I have not read yet. I plan to. Perhaps, however, it’s time for me to lay out my thoughts in greater detail, so you all can follow my sources, tell me they are full of shit, and not think twice about it. But first, I need to read up on the Lone Nut (LHO) books. With that said,

I’m not sure I have a theory, per se. But I have some ideas that I can list. I certainly don’t know who fired the shots. But, I don’t believe the WC got it right.

  1. There was more than one shooter in Dealey Plaza. I’m thinking at least three shooters, maybe more. But one from the TSBD, one from the Dal-Tex building, and one from the GN.

  2. These shooters may or may not have been familiar with each other (ie, their motives may not have been the same). I’m guessing they were at least coordinated to the point that they didn’t show up at the same locations, and they all shot at the same time, but there were a lot of groups and individuals angry with Kennedy.

  3. Oswald was involved, but I’m not exactly clear about his involvement. Was he a member of one of the groups that wanted to kill Kennedy, was he on his own, or was he set up to be the fall guy?

  4. The magic bullet theory doesn’t wash. Even if all of the wounds in Kennedy and Connally were caused by one shot that wasn’t the fatal head shot, there is no way that bullet comes out virtually pristine with all of the bone it (allegedly) hit.

  5. Once LHO was targeted as the shooter, everything else was thrown out the window. The WC was told to do what it needed to do, but their conclusion better have LHO shooting out of the 6th floor of the TSBD.

  6. Even if there wasn’t any government involvement before, there surely was afterwards, even if it boiled down to CYA actions. Let’s face it. They didn’t do their jobs, and it’s not like LHO wasn’t already on their radar screen.

  7. I wasn’t alive during this period, and I have no clue how tensions between the US, Cuba, and the USSR played a role in the US trying to close this case. I don’t think anyone in the US power structure wanted to start WWIII over this assassination unless they HAD to.
    Garrison is another animal altogether. I don’t think he was a crusader, especially at the beginning of his investigation. It didn’t even begin until 3 years had passed. I don’t think he was doing anything but following leads, and things began to pour in faster than he could handle it. He became paranoid, thought every govt. agency was involved at some level, and his theories at the end were all over the place. He was also angry, as I believe at some level he thought he was onto something, and no one in the right places gave him any support. Label him a nut, and people start believing he’s a nut. He starts to spin out of control and starts to look like a nut.

111

What evidence do you have of this?

OK, this is a new theory - by pure coincidence, three separate people decided to pick exactly the same instant and exactly the same place to shoot the President.

Setting LHO up as the fall guy implies conspiracy and coordination - one hell of a lot of conspiracy and coordination. So your theory of randomness can’t be true.

We’ve done this one to death, buried it, dug it up, beat it some more, ground it into hamburger, fed it to a dog, beat the dog to death, and buried it at a crossroads with a stake thru its heart.

Regards,
Shodan

112

Something hosed my quote, and I’m not going back! dammit!

other than the numerous witnesses to the event, including people on the grassy knoll that thought the shots came from behind them, the one mark I saw in a photo of the limo at the hospital (in the windshield trim), and the billion other pieces of “evidence” that are in books that focus on this subject, none.

I think I worded this incorrectly. What I meant was that the shooters may not have known each other personally, but were coordinated by a single entity. The shooters may have been guns for hire, hated JFK personally, or were mercenaries. Sorry for the confusion. I re-read my post and it is confusing

Again, apologies for the confusing post. But setting up LHO wouldn’t have been that hard. If you think about it, LHO was a perfect fall-guy. And if you believe in a CT, then odds are you believe he was involved in some way with the shooters. I mean, what kind of assassin carries his rifle with him to work the day of the shooting (assuming the curtain rods were indeed his rifle)?

One question for anyone. Does anyone know when the parade route was officially changed? I have read that it was changed that day, and the morning edition of the paper had the original parade route printed in it. If so, then Oswald’s shots would have been a bit more difficult. I’ve never been to DP, so would that shot have been any harder? I know it’s a longer distance, but if it’s still a clear shot, he could still have taken the shot.

I shall read.

113

So where are the witnesses who saw a shooter in the Dal-Tex building? Where did his bullet go if he took a shot? I mean, you can speculate all day long about how a shooter could have been in a helicopter above the plaza or whatever, but there’s zero evidence to think it’s true. And the grassy knoll? A shooter there would have been in plain view of hundreds of people, and right freakin’ next to Zapruder who was filming. The place is small! The notion that there could have been a shooter on the GN is ridiculous.

Since we know there were three shots, and the fatal head shot fragmented and passed through his skull, it tells me that a fragment probably hit the windshield chrome.

They say this because it was small, and exit wounds are typically large. That does require an explanation, and the plausible one that we have is that this wound happened at his shirt collar (the bullet nicked the knot of his necktie). The tension of his collar held the skin so that it didn’t rip open wide.

I’m unfamiliar with any study saying this. Note that the fragments that went in Connally’s thigh (and some in his wrist) are still there, in his buried body.

That’s false. The recovered bullet was two or three grains short of the typical weight, and there are about two grains of fragments in Connally.

What about the more realistic tests that were done, such that when the bullet hit any bone it had already been slowed by passing through Kennedy’s neck and Connally’s chest? Those tests show that only flattening of the end of the bullet is quite plausible.

114

He would have been a terrible choice for any group who wanted an assassin. Had any group hired Oswald, I would expect him to sing like a canary.

A lone nut?

You’ve read lies. It was not changed. One paper printed a very zoomed-out route, for which the turn onto Houston and then Elm would have been too small a detail to draw. But even that route showed the limo going North on Stemmons Freeway, and the only way possible to do that is to turn onto Houston and then Elm.

115

A lone nut, perhaps?

If Oswald was a patsy, then why would this patsy carry a rifle to the fricking assassination site? The only reason for Oswald to be carrying a rifle is if he thought he was going to shoot the president with it.

And if you’ve got Oswald shooting at the president from the TBD, why do you need anyone else? It’s an easy shot. Why in God’s name would you need THREE shooters, for crying out loud? What’s wrong with one shooter who knows what he’s doing?

And yes, you have witnesses who thought the shots came from somewhere else. But if you believe those witnesses you have to disbelieve 10 times as many witnesses who thought the shots came from the TBD. What makes the few witnesses who thought the shots came from elsewhere more believable than the many others who didn’t? It’s hard to locate the position of noises like gunshots. It’s easy to be confused about where the shots are coming from, especially when you don’t expect the shots. This has been shown thousands of times on the battlefield.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Especially almost 50 years after the fact.

The problem with the “Oswald was a patsy” theory is, why would you need a patsy? Why not employ a professional sharpshooter who could have shot the president from a much greater distance on scores of other occasions, and gotten away clean. And if you’re going to provide a patsy, why have Ruby gun him down? That just confuses things.

The problem with the conspiracy theory angle is that the theorizers start with the events as they happen, then try to construct a reason for the conspirators to make it seem like that’s what happened. But the problem is that if the conspirators really wanted the results they are supposed to have wanted, there would be much easier ways of achieving them than the bizarre and byzantine ways the conspiracy theory alleges.

Like, say, WTC 7. Theorists go nuts alleging that WTC 7 shouldn’t have collapsed. So the conspirators must have purposefully made WTC 7 collapse. But WHY? Suppose you’re an Illuminatus who wants to get rid of WTC 7. So you wire the building with explosives, then wire WTC 1 and 2, then get some jihadists to hijack planes and fly them into the buildings, then you demolish WTC 1 and 2, then you demolish WTC 7, then you profit. But why not just send a team of guys in trucks, pack up whatever it is in WTC 7, and drive away? The plan doesn’t make sense.

So, suppose you want to kill the president. What’s the best way to accomplish this? A plan that involves multiple shooters, nutty patsies, the support of multiple government authorities to help cover up evidence.

Or would you use one shooter who gets away and the case remains unsolved? Hey, you can clear up lose ends by having your mystery assassin quietly killed. Or substitute some of the pills his quack doctors give him. And so on.

If I was an illuminatus who wanted to kill Kennedy, I could pull 10 plans out of my ass that would work better than what would have had to happen if the actually occuring assassination were the result of illuminati plots.

116

Maybe we should follow the principle of “sonny bono”.

He’s dead, let it go already.

117

I don’t think we’ve adequately addressed the possibilty that JFK’s head spontaneously exploded. It hapens – I’ve read about it in the Weekly World News,

118

Hmmm.

I can see where this is going.

I don’t think a debate at this point is meaningful, since it’s been hashed out on this board so many times, there are answers for every point of any conspiracy angle, and if you don’t believe, you don’t believe. I have never seen a picture of LHO shooting a rifle out of the TSBD, but I’ve never seen a picture of a shooter on the grassy knoll, either.

I can tell you of an interview of a soldier on the grassy knoll who reacted as if shots came from right behind his head, but I’ve never been there and you will tell me the area is too small. I have seen witnesses interviewed who claim they saw a shooter on the GN, but you will tell me that these people are either lying for attention or the reports are flat out wrong.

I’m not being purposely stubborn; I feel I need to read some of the sources named in the thread to help me see what you are all seeing. Perhaps the rifle when taken apart did fit under LHO’s armpit when he carried it, even though supposedly the MC he used couldn’t be broken down that small. Perhaps the ID’ing of the murder weapon being initially reported as a 7.65 Mauser by the police was a mistake or never happened, even though the guns look nothing alike.

I’m fascinated that things I believed to be true (the metal missing from the magic bullet was less than what they found in Connally) is false.

I need to look at more sources and have an open mind. It sounds like a few of you changed your mind after reading a book or twelve. I need to do more research.

Thanks all

119

Just read a few of the myriad threads that have been previously done on this subject, especially from a few years ago. Every question has been asked and answered…to be honest this CT has been so repeatedly and throughly debunked that there are no big questions left that haven’t been explored. You simply aren’t going to get an interesting debate on this subject anymore, at least not on this board. It would be like asking ‘prove evolution to me’…

-XT

120

This is what I’m talking about. Try to do a little research on the issue. Just google “jim garrison homosexual conspiracy” and read some hits.

Or let me do that for you:

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