I find it mildly ironic that the God worshipped by these two is the same one who will torture you for all eternity if you don’t love him with your whole heart.
Speaking for myself, my father used to beat me bloody with a belt when I did wrong. He also tae-kwan-doe kicked me in the chest at least twice that I remember.
I had to cut off contact with him and go through years of painful self-examination before I became the “well-rounded person” described by JD.
I will never, ever raise my hand to my children. EVER. And they will turn out just fine.
Topically…well, yeah. But what can you do? Hope and/or pray for the kid, pretty much, yeah.
But (here I grasp at analogy straws)…on the hopeful side of this kind of thing is that often the “If I did that my dad woulda tanned my butt right off and then my mom woulda taken a switch to my denuded tailbone! hyuk hyuk!” thing is, realistically, often just hyperbole. To a certain demographic, it’s funny in the same way that Gallagher apparently was (I’m conjecturing here; I’ve seen people laugh coincidentally with it)–and as baffling as people laughing at melon squishin’s is, it doesn’t necessarily make them, you know, bad people. (It’s just troubling circumstantial evidence.)
Complete hijack, but don’t use writing as punishment. I dealt with too many high school kids and college freshmen who already hated to write because their parents and teachers used it as punishment.
Take away TV. Make baby clean the living room. But don’t use reading or writing as punishment in any way.
I got my hide tanned with a belt a few times when I was a young’un. I richly deserved it each time, too.
No adverse affects. My parents never spanked me without an awfully good reason, and they went out of their way to help me understand why they did in those rare instances.
(Of course, I usually knew anyway.)
They also made a point of never spanking me when they were pissed off. When I got it, I knew it was because I was being punished, not because I was a convenient outlet for their anger; there was no question as to their motivation, and thus there was no lingering fear they’d lash out at me for no reason, out of anger at things I didn’t do, etcetera.
I was beaten with a belt too. On very rare occasions, and yes I deserved punishment at least of some sort. I feel very sure my mom was holding back, a lot, and that she hated to do it. Whether I turned out all right or not is for others to judge.
The problem comes in when people are so confident that whuppin’ is the thing to do - because of scripture, tradition, or reason - that they get a little gung-ho about it. This is one instance when Scripture can really reinforce one’s natural tendency to be an asshole.
I hope and trust JC and JD are going to be loving parents, much as I disagree with their stance on discipline, being firmly based as it is in Old Testament practices (I guess child discipline falls into that “spiritual law” area that still applies, unlike the “cultural laws”, such as wearing cotton/poly blends, that don’t apply.)
It’s possible that an occasionally belt-wielding parent is not an ogre. But the potential for abuse by assholes is very high, and Joe_Cool, your quotes frankly worry me. It sounds like you might be just a little bit too interested in whuppin’ ass. Cracking your knuckles in anticipation just a bit. Just my opinion from reading what you’ve said.
I’m frightened that there are people out there like JC and JD. JD is a nurse?!!? A caring professional would never take JOY in the prospect of physically harming their child (or anyone else).
As for her casting aspersions on the quality of my teaching and calling me an idiot, I say, “Heh.”
I am going to say this again, and again and one more time because I don’t think it’s coming through. No one is saying smacking a child in certain situations is not appropriate.
As I stated in that thread, I would consult the parents and discuss their means of discipline if I was concerned that their discipline was bordering on abuse. All people who work with children are OBLIGED to do so (in most states). If a cop sees you beating your child with a stick VIOLENTLY in the front yard, and he doesn’t report you, and gets caught, he’ll be fined or jailed. Period.
You may disagree and think that teachers, social workers and policepeople should mind their own business and let you do the parenting, and that is what Joel Steinburg thought, too. If you beat your children with objects, repeatedly, and hard enough that they cannot sit down, or that the child has bruises, welts and lesions, you ARE ABUSING YOUR CHILD, as far as most people who are mandatory reporters are concerned.
What’s annoying is that there’s a potentially fascinating discussion about effective parenting tools here: “swat on the butt” vs the “time out” system or similar, but since both sides have psychotic advocates (“ANY TIME YOU TOUCH YOUR PRECIOUS BABY WITH DISCIPLINE IN MIND YOU’RE COMMITTING CHILD ABUSE, YOU NAZI!” and “Ah have th’ gawd-given right tuh use anything up-to-and-including bicycle chains tuh teach muh kid a lesson. Iffin’ ah don’t, he’ll end up as a Gay Commie Athiest.”) and since these insects swarm in over every discussion on the topic, they drown out the reasonable discussion to be had.
First of all, if Aaron pulls a pot off the stove, I’d think the pain from the burn alone would be good incentive for him not to do it again. I don’t see any reason to compound the pain by spanking him.
I also don’t see anything wrong with a light tap on the butt, especially when he’s doing something particularly egregious or dangerous. Gets his attention so you can explain why what he’s doing is wrong.
However, I draw the line at props. I cannot fathom behavior so bad that physical violence is necessary. If Aaron’s behavior becomes so negative or dangerous that repeated nonviolent discipline fails, I’m going to have him evaluated for something like ADD/ADHD or some other psychiatric problem. I see absolutely zero reason for me to pick up an object and beat my son with it.
Don’t you see Nocturne? Obviously it would have been ridiculous to try and REASON with you…I’m sure you’d done something horrid and the only way to rectify it was physical abuse.
Since it’s the StraightDope and all, I feel obliged to point out that’s actually the second greatest commandment.
As far as the topic goes, I’m of the opinion that children who learn from their parents that all problems can be solved with violence don’t grow up particularly well.
I don’t think there are any simple answers to this debate. I have spanked both my daughters a total of about 5 times altogether somewhere between the ages of three to six. Prior to that compliance difficulties were addressed by sheer non violent force. There comes a time however when the bad behavior of the child such as getting caught stealing for a second time requires a serious tune up. A very rare spanking, done in private(no embarassment) solemnly delivered with “ceremonial” atmosphere has been very successful for us. My youngest daughter is nearing 12 and I’m getting the same sense that my wife are on the right track here as with the eldest grown daughter.
I can not accept that corporal punishment is a regular answer to child discipline. If it is delivered in anger as it was with my parents, it is destructive and counter-productive, even though I knew my parents loved me very much.
I had the strap many times in elementary school from grade 2 onwards. It was very painful, but I’m certain that it didn’t scar me.
What did scar me was the diminutive 40 year old spinster Miss Scott, my grade 7 teacher in 1957. I had burst out laughing in class, so she ordered me to walk up to the front of the class wherupon she wound up and slapped me across the face. I have never hated anyone like I hate her.
That thread is very creepy. I cannot fathom how people can talk so blithely about causing pain in people they love. I suppose it can only make sense if you were repeatedly on the recieving end. Then it becomes ‘the way the world works.’
shiver
A lot of humanity’s capacity to do “evil” makes sense when looked at that way.
Actually, Thras, I DID know it was the second greatest, I SWEAR, but since they two are only separated by a semicolon, I felt saying THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT had more dramatic effect
I love how she mentions that her daughter’s teacher tried to play parent, and when I asked for details she lashed out and said I was nosy and that it was none of my business.
Then don’t fucking mention it in the first place, dumbass.
Of course we should spank our children! THE BIBLE says we “should!”
To which I say: “THE BIBLE says a lot of stuff. Are you going to call a rabbi in to inspect your home when you get a spot of mildew on the wall? That’s in THE BIBLE too.” (Sorry no chapter’n’verse. I don’t have a Bible handy and no patience to paw through Leviticus trying to find it.)
My parents used to yank me out of church to spank my ass when I wouldn’t sit still. You could hear it inside the sanctuary if they did it between hymns. I might mention there was a perfectly good nursery downstairs and anyone who’s ever been to one can attest that Lutheran services are bor-ing.
My mom used to swat me with a wooden breadboard. That didn’t hurt as much as my dad beating the hell out of me with his bare hands. He didn’t stop doing that even after I came down with ITP, a main symptom of which is bruising. Lucky for him the bruises the counselors at school noticed were caused by my own clumsiness.
Oh yeah I turned out to be a well-rounded person. By my own efforts. I have a lousy relationship with my parents, and most of it dates back to the beatings my sisters and I got. They don’t spank their kids except for a little swat on the behind, and my oldest sister doesn’t do that anymore. Going To Your Room is a much more effective punishment for them. We all still have a somewhat decent relationship with our mom, but we’re still very careful around my dad.
Of course, I could be bitter because I had to rescue the dog this morning after my dad beat the shit out of her for stealing cat food.
