John Kerry and medal throwing.

Great Debates
1

First off, for full disclaimer purposes, I am Republican. I do not intend to vote for John Kerry in November. I am, however, a Navy veteran and have respect for the guy where such respect is due. I honor his service to our country.

I would, however, like some straight answers about the medals. As a voter, I think I’m due one. I fear, though, I’ll never get one.

The facts really aren’t in dispute. John Kerry earned his medals, every single last one of them. For the record, they include the Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat.

Cite: http://www.johnkerry.com/about/

After returning from the war, though, he became a war protester. During a protest in front of the Capitol Building in 1971, Kerry threw his ribbons (which represent his medals on non-dress uniforms) and the medals of other veterans at the Capitol.

I really don’t have a problem with this, either. John Kerry certainly had earned the right to protest Vietnam, and if he wanted to throw medals in protest, he was more than free to do so.

But today, in a frame in his office near that same Capitol Building, those same medals sit displayed in a frame. They occupy a place of honor. They are important to him.

And I can certainly understand, if he had come to regret his previous actions and wanted to display the medals, I can respect that. But this has been done with no explanation, no clarification, no repudiation of using a national symbol as political theater. And for a public figure of his stature, this is simply not good enough. It’s trying to have it both ways.

John Kerry, you earned those medals honorably, but understand that in a larger sense they are not your personal property. I could buy a Silver Star tomorrow, but it would not make me a hero. It would make me a fraud. The medal is the thanks of a grateful nation.

What you did is take that thanks, cast it into the mud, pick it back up, shine it up again, and put it under glass. A lot of people are offended by this. I’m reserving judgement until I get an explanation.

2

Cannot a man be simultaneously opposed to a war and yet justly proud of his valor in combat?

Throwing the ribbons was a symbolic act.

3

I wonder if any women who burned bras in the 60’s are wearing one today.

Just wondering.

4

Sure he can, spoke.

And we can debate whether such symbolism was appropriate.

The medal-throwing was a centerpiece of the protest in question, so a lot of people were very surprised later when the medals showed up on Kerry’s wall.

I think Kerry is loath to repudiate the medal throwing, because it would tick off the old-school liberals who hold sway over the nominating process in the Democratic party today.

5

Big difference, dude. Most women wear bras. Very few people earn the kinds of decorations he earned.

Look, I’m willing to write it off to a spur of the moment thing. It was a different time back then, and I’m sure he was angry. Doesn’t mean I have to be happy about it, but it’s at least somewhat understandable given the circumstances.

6

To me, it is less important what he did “back in the day” than how he would respond to questions about it today. Same with Bush. I was very disappointed in how Bush handled the question of his service record in the MtP interview on Sunday. Instead of offering facts to dispute the claim, he tried to dismiss it as “politics”. We’ll see how Kerry defends his actions, as well as his defense voting record for the last 20 years.

7

He didn’t throw his own medals. Maybe this will help?

I’m not sure why there is a difference between (returning) ribbons and/or medals. Maybe a vet can explain?

8

I’m a vet. U.S. Navy, 1993-98. While I was never decorated for heroism, I was decorated several times for superior performance of duty, so I know something about proper care and feeding of medals.

Your ribbons, for all intents and purposes, are your medals. I can look at the ribbons a soldier, sailor or marine is wearing and know exactly what medals he has at home in his dresser drawer or presentation case.

Throwing those ribbons on the ground is an equivalent act of disrespect. John Kerry’s saying he wanted to protest the war by throwing the ribbons back, but honor his service by keeping his medals is splitting hairs. It’s having it both ways. And that’s the thing I can’t respect.

9

Your ribbons are representations of medals earned. The multi-color bar you see on someone’s uniform is in the exact pattern of the ribbon attached to the awarded medal, and since no two medals are alike, anyone who knows service medals can instantly identify what one has earned.

Throwing them down is exactly the same as throwing medals down.

10

What a disingenuous OP, considering that you have no inetention of voting for Kerry anyway. If that’s the case then you’re asking a question when you don’t really care about the answer, you’re just looking for an excuse to smear Kerry.

What Kerry does with his medals or ribbons is flat out none of your business. End of story. If he wanted to throw back his ribbons thirty years ago, who gives a shit? They’re his ribbons, not yours. This statement:

is a steaming pile of crap. They are his personal property in every sense. There is no fucking “larger sense” in which they belong to you or me or anybody else. He’s the guy who got shot at, not you. You have no claim, whatsoever on those medals and you have zero right to dictate what he does with them. They are his, period. If he wants to wipe his ass with his ribbons or use them for nutrags, more power to him. he earned them, he may do as he pleases.

If he now wants to display those shiny medals with pride, such is his right. I see no crime in that. He wanted to toss his ribbons as a symbolic protest against a reprehensible war which he served honorably in. Good for him. He wanted to save the medals out of personal pride. Also good for him. It’s a good thing he got ribbons and medals because it allowed him to make two noble and non-contradictory statements.

Disrespect for what?

11

LoL… The OP has shown genuine interest in finding out the answer. But I’ll need to bookmark this thread to help you understand your own motivation in your next Bush-bashing thread. :slight_smile:

12

I’ve never made a secret of my motivations in Bush-bashing. I post my rants in the pit. I don’t disguise them as debate questions if I don’t care what the answer is.

13

It should be pretty clear from my posts what my motivations are. I am a proud veteran, and things like this are important to me. My brother, who served in the Navy at around the same time as me, is a Democrat. He cares about the answer too.

John Kerry is now asking for my vote for President. That makes it my business.

As has been noted, they are the same thing.

And sure, I can’t dicate anything. John Kerry had the right to take those medals and toss them back, saying “This is what I think of your war.” There is a part of me that has great respect for that stance, though I do disagree with it. For it is possible to oppose a war without throwing the heartfelt thanks of your country on the ground.

But to then turn around and display the same medals on the wall, without first explaining why it might have been a bad idea to throw the medals in the first place, is what I have a problem with. If you throw them, they stay thrown. Or repudiate the throwing, and take the risk of pissing off an ageing hippie or two.

But this splitting the difference is baffling to me.

14

I think annaplurabelle’s post dealt with this.

See above, and also the fact that they weren’t his.

In 1985, Kerry told the Post, “It’s such a personal thing. They’re my medals. I’ll do what I want with them. People say, ‘You didn’t throw your medals away.’ Who said I had to? And why should I? It’s my business. I did not want to throw my medals away.”

That might not be a repudiation, but that’s his feeling on the subject. Es claro?

Your question has been answered. You don’t have to like the answer, but I’m not sure what’s left at this point. spoke- gave an explanation that makes perfect sense to me, and I agree with Diogenes that you don’t have an ownership here. You say this is your business because he’s running for President, but that was well after you said you weren’t voting for him anyway.

15

Mr. Moto, you’ve already said you won’t vote for Kerry, so his asking for your vote is irrelevant. Is there any possible answer to your question that will make any difference to your vote?

What does any of this have to do with his ability to run the country anyway? Are you questioning his patriotism? Does his protesting after he came back from the war in any way invalidate his service while he was there?

Frankly, you should be more concerned about the integrity of the guy who pulled strings to get out of the war and then went AWOL for a year.

What is your real concern here? You admit you have no ownership over Kerry’s medals. You admit that he earned them. Your worst case scenario is what? That he wanted to “have it both ways.” by protesting the war and keeping his medals? Who gives a shit. I personally see no contradiction there but what do you think it says about his ability to be president?

Who actually did more for his country, Kerry or Shrub?

16

Thanks for the ribbon/medal explanations.

I agree with John Mace that it’s a legitimate OP, regardless of who you intend to vote for.

But I don’t know why another vet wouldn’t understand how a soldier could have conflicted feelings about the justness of a war - even though he enlisted for it, and fought in it ( or especially since he fought in it).

Maybe the personal motivations/frame of mind offered by Kerry don’t resonate the same way for post-Vietnam vets???

You seem to expect Kerry to have had more unwavering respect for ribbons and medals than the government had for the lives of the men and women they sent there.

17

Obviously, it’s not important to you because you’ve already made your decision.

No it doesn’t. Not unless you can show that what Kerry does with his personal property in some way affects you or affects his ability to lead the country. Otherwise you are no more entitled to an explanation about what he does with his medals than how he arranges his underwear drawer.

Irrelevant. He is not obligated to treat each award in the same way. He can throw some away, and display some, and give some away , and bake some of them in a pie and roll the rest up in a big-ass blunt and smoke them. At no point does it become any of your business. At no point does he owe you an explanation at no point is he required to conform to your personal sense of consistency.

Easy for you to “disagree” with. You weren’t over there getting shot at. Sheesh, I didn’t know anybody still tried to defend Vietnam.

I would call it rejecting an empty and insincere act of government symbolism but you’re entitled to your sentimental fantasy if you want. By the way, returning vets weren’t feeling a whole lot of “thanks” from the public at that time. Maybe you should read a bit about it.

It wan’t a bad idea to throw the ribbons awy in the first place. It was a good idea. It was effective. It woke people up to the travesty of that war. It made people aware that it wasn’t just dirty hippies who objected to that war. It legitimized the protests. It gave them gravitas. It helped end the war. He has nothing to apologize for.

Nonsense. You can throw the ribbons to make a symobolic protes and get people’s attention and then you can hang the actual medals out of pride for your service. there is no contradiction. Both acts make sense and they do not cancel each other out.

18

Marley23, let’s examine the facts in evidence.

Fact 1. Kerry threw his own ribbons. Nobody is disputing this.

Fact 2. Ribbons and medals are the same thing. I can tell you as a veteran that this is so, and Airman Doors can back me up.

Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Kerry threw his medals down that day.

It’s also indisputable that he’s mighty proud of those medals now. Click on the link in my OP, and they are clearly referenced. Nothing wrong with that, it is as it should be.

But John Kerry got his start in politics as a charismatic antiwar protester. The throwing of the medals was a big part of this image.

And his Post interview doesn’t go nearly far enough. They were asking why the ribbons were thrown instead of the medals. The question for me is why the awards were worthy to be thrown on the ground in 1971, and worthy to be hung on the wall in 2004.

Some people consider the question answered, but I don’t. And though the man wasn’t on my list of candidates to vote for, I’d still like an explanation. He may well be elected President. My President. And though this seems a petty matter it goes to the heart of some fundamental matters of honor.

19

“Honor?”

You’ve got to be kidding me. You Bushies seem to be very selective about what constitutes honor. You’ve actually contorted yourself into a position that pretends to to be awed by Bush’s ANG malingering and appalled by Kerry’s brazen display of combat medals.

Political yoga, man, rhetorical origami.

20

You’re putting words in my mouth, which is pretty dishonorable.