After reading much of what has gone before here and watching the media get manipulated into focusing on this medal thing, I’m still not clear as to what Kerry did with medals or ribbons 33 odd years ago has on his ability to run the county TODAY?
Perhaps this political cartoon will serve to provide a close to this thread:
Medals
I agree, this is in the top three the stupidest discussions on the SDMB to date.
At least Kerry had some worthwhile medals, or ribbons, or whatever to throw.
iamme99, in case you haven’t been following along, the issue isn’t so much the fact that Kerry threw medals thirty years ago.
It’s the fact that he can’t give a straight answer today about the seeming inconsintencies, first throwing medals and then wearing medals and then displaying them with pride. This lack of a straight answer makes him look like a hypocrite.
The Charlie Gibson interview was earlier this week. That’s hardly thirty years ago. The hypocrisy Kerry appears to be displaying is of very recent vintage.
Mr. Moto, you keep asserting that the ribbons issue is hurting Kerry, and that many veterans are mad about this. Do you have any objective support for either assertion? It is my belief that this is only an issue for those already predisposed to not support Kerry. Bush is a terrible president, and those who want to support the Republicans at any cost want to find some piece of wreckage to cling to. “Well, as much as I dislike the direction of our country, I can’t support someone who threw his ribbons. Or who threw his ribbons but remains proud of his service. Or who threw his ribbons, remains proud of his service, but can’t explain the two things to my satisfaction.”
I say that you go off and revel in your dissatisfaction. It matters not, because this is an issue only for the “pre-fooled,” despite your unsupported assertions to the contrary.
And boy, as much of a dire issue this was for the administration last week, their sphincters seem to have puckered since Kerry called for Bush to actually release his military records.
I say Kerry should continue to hammer on it. I think it is a net gain to have the “spectre” of the thrown medals go up against the incomplete complete military history and the underlying failure to participate in one’s agreed upon duties, in addition to the strings that were pulled to get in in the first place.
Bring it on.
Moto That quote was in response to your **constant[b/] mantra that Bush did his service in the same way that **every other ** Guardsmen and reservists, including your father did. The problem is, every other Guardsmen and reservists including YOUR father didn’t get special treatment. What would have happened to YOUR father if he didn’t turn up for duty? Didn’t have enough points? Would some Officer had given YOUR father 35 “gratuitous” inactive Air Force Reserve points like Bush was given?
Of course it didn’t merit a reply, that would require non-linear thought, which is funny considering the level of mental gymnastics you’re willing to go through to defend your position of being the offendi.
But I finally understand you…all that matters to you is the result, not the cause. Bush was discharged with honor, so it doesn’t matter to you what the circumstances of that discharge was he did his service…and anyone who questions the value of that discharge/serivce is in your mind questioning all discharges and services…including YOUR father’s. It’s all just one straight line to you…yes or no, black or white. No duality, no evolution, no change…every event is self contained and all that matters is the conclusion, not the cause or benefit.
Kerry tossed his medals, it doesn’t matter to you what the circumstances were that caused him to do it. He did it and since YOU or YOUR father would never do such a thing, you are unable to see how Kerry could do it and still keep it as a place of pride, because YOU would never be able to separate the two acts. If YOU tossed your medals, they would be dead to you…forever lost and you can’t or WON’T see how Kerry can.
I can’t help you with that, for I fear if you’re being sincere; there’s no helping you.
However let me ask you…honestly. If Kerry said in that interview, " Look Charlie…I was angry at the government and I needed to do something, so I tossed my medals…later on I realized that those medals represented more than just the government’s policy, they also represented lost comrades…so I retrieved them. NOT because I made a mistake in tossing them, that was bewteen ME and the GOVERNMENT…but because in retrieving them, I honour the memory of every fallen solider and I keep them today in a place of honour."
Would that satisfy you? If not, why?
Sure, Hentor the Barbarian. I can easily back this up.
Presidential politics plays a part at VFW convention.
From the linked article:
The VFW, by the way, is officially non-partisan. Where I grew up, most of the members were union Democrats. It tries to maintain ties with both parties to secure programs for veterans. John Kerry, because of his stellar war record in a foreign land, should have an instant rappor with these men and women.
Instead, they give him a “polite” reception. And this politeness had to be coerced from some delegates.
Hentor, you asked for objective proof that the medals issue is hurting Kerry among veterans. This should suffice.
Kerry got a “polite” response from VFW delegates in Texas and that’s supposed to represent wide spread resentment of veterans? What do those few delegates who were selectively interviewed to trash John Kerry have to say about Bush’s dereliction of duty?
It absolutely would, holmes. That answer is straightforward, and honest, and believable. If it were to come from Kerry himself, I would request a lockdown of this thread, and go on to more productive things.
However, that answer didn’t come from Kerry. It came from you. The answers we’re actually getting from Kerry do not meet this standard of honesty and believability. His answers on this issue reek of hypocrisy and opportunism.
Diogenes, what’s telling in the article is that Bush (via videotape), Rumsfeld, Rice and Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi all received much warmer applause than Kerry.
Also, the leadership of the convention had to warn delegates that heckling Kerry during his speech wouldn’t be tolerated.
Don’t you find that disturbing, at a VFW convention? John Kerry is, after all, a veteran of a foreign war.
Well, Mr. Moto, anecdotes and a subjective evaluation of the “warmth” of the reception don’t really count for much, I should think. Got anything more in line with what I actually requested, which was objective support for your assertions? Polling of veterans nationwide? An analysis of veteran’s voting trends? Anything?
How did they measure the “warmth” of the applause exactly?
Seriously, the fact that they would applaud Dick Cheney, a guy said he had “other priorities” during the Vietnam war, is basically just proof that this was pretty much a partisan crowd, regardless of their official stance. The military is a right wing culture. I know. I was in it. Most vets are conservative, that’s just how it is. There’s nothing wrong with that, but a Democratic candidate is not starting with a level playing field among vets even if the candidate is a war hero.
I don’t find it surprising…hypocritical on the part of those present, maybe, but not surprising.
Whoops, Cheney wasn’t one of the gys they applauded. Still…Rice and Rumsfeld are no war heros either. They are purely political figures and represent the highest echelon of Bush’s neocon inner circle. Applause for Rice and Rummy is partisan applause and, frankly, discredits anything they have to say about Kerry.
What you asked for, Hentor, was objective evidence. I gave it to you. I can assure you that any politician would see potential problems in the fact that VFW members would treat a war hero so cooly, poll or no poll.
He knows that the veteran’s block can’t be written off to the Republicans, much as Diogenes might like to stereotype them all as right-wing freaks.
If all veterans are pretty much right wing, how does this explain Kerry himself, Max Cleland, Bob Kerrey, John McCain, and Diogenes the Cynic? This really doesn’t stand up to logic.
No, not all, nor even a majority, of veterans are inherently right wing. The VFW, however, is a pretty reliable entity. If you want to present a “My country, right or wrong, and anybody who doesn’t support a war president is unpatriotic” message, you can’t find a better venue. Now, when the war president was LBJ, one might be tempted to interpret this as an oriented to Democrats.
I wonder if friend Moto is aware that many local VFW chapters resisted the inclusion of Viet Nam veterans, precisely because so many returning vets were vocally anti-war? Shenanigans like claiming that the Viet Nam horror was not really a “foreign war” since no “war” was declared. That this might issue from the mouths of Korean War veterans shows a small comprehension of irony.
Some of this attitude persists today, the quaint and crippled notion that all a scoundrel need do is start a military engagement, and he becomes immune to criticism. A notion, I hasten to point out, that the Bushiviks are enamored of.
It is a bright, shining lie. A man who trys to drape the flag over his own stubborn and arrogant foolishness desecrates that flag.
Frankly, I find Kerry’s emphasis on his war record a bit discomfiting. Seems every rally has at least one aging trooper in a campaign hat, always by sheer coincidence positioned to be scanned by passing TV cameras. But this is politics, after all, and no virgin is ever elected Queen of the Whores.
But to try and indict Kerry for relatively minor political fibs while simultaneously pretending that GeeDubya is a paragon of candor and straightforwardness…this buggers the question.
Gosh, Moto, is this really the best you got? You should think about that. Kerry released all, and I do mean all of his records, he signed the form that GeeDubya won’t sign. You and I know that those records were examined in minute detail by persons much like yourself, hoping to find some dirt, or if not dirt, a soil-related program. And what did they come up with? Kudos and commendations, up and down the line.
What do you get when you look at GeeDubya’s records? Redactions, blank spots, and such stirring commendations as “Lt. Bush has not been observed”.
Outstanding.
Well, then, I guess that’s how it goes, then.
I’m still not convinced by Kerry’s explanations, and the usual suspects here at GD are ignoring some reasonable people who are troubled by Kerry’s equivocations on this issue. And they refuse to believe that this will hurt him with voters.
Guess we’ll see come November.
Mods, this has officially jumped the tracks. If anything new happens, I’ll start a new thread and link this. This thing has gone on too long, and it’s just circular now.
Please lock it up.
Opinions are not objective. What you provided was anecdotes - quotes from two or three people, stating their opinions. Then there was the opinion of the author of the article about the “warmth” of the applause. These are not objective indicators to support the assertion that “many veterans” are unhappy with Kerry or his history.
Don’t run away, just say you don’t know for sure how many is many, and are only posting your gut feeling. I hardly think that this thread has jumped the tracks - it seems like it is right on the same track it was from the outset. Unfortunately it looks like you are ranting with impotent rage. Sorry.
"PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.
In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of the scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first."
Ambrose Bierce
The Devil’s Dictionary
Ambrose Bierce - US writer, newspaper man and editor. … Not long after the Civil War broke out he enlisted as a volunteer in the Unior Army. He began as a drummer-boy with the 9th Indiana Infantry, … was wounded at Kenesaw Mountain, and emerged from the war as a Lieutenant with the brevet [temporary] rank of Major. (By Clifton Fadiman in The Collected Writings of Ambrose Bierce"
As to the VFW, I knew there was a reason I never was interested in joining. I wish they would put a little pressure on GW, the one they greeted “warmly,” to improve the care in the Veteran’s Hospitals, and the same on all other Presidents too.
As to the subject of the thread I’d say something about it but I just don’t give a shit, now or in the future.
There are some veteran organizations that are against Bush. For instance:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
As many on this board know, I am a Viet Nam vet. As some know, I was medivaced out because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and had to have a portion of my body put back together.
I ended up with a couple of ribbons and the things they represented. No, I was not a hero.
Probably, if I would have heard about it at the time, I would have tossed my ribbons too. I was offended by the war and what it was doing to people both there and in the U.S. I neither wanted to think about it nor deal with it. I was and am much less political than Senator Kerry. 33 years later, while I am still amazed at the stupidity of that war. Possibly I would have pulled my medals out. But it would not be for the reasons everyone seems to be discussing on this board. It’s different. I am not sure I can explain it, but I will try.
They are/were a part of me or at least what they represented. They represented a part of my life that I was at the time not proud of. It was a part of my life I tried to reject and expunge. Since that time, however. I have grown to accept it and at times almost be proud of. But not the military part – at least not the official military part, and that is what so many people see when they see medals, but of the human part, that part which lets a man stand with (and I guess, against) other men. And if the medals and ribbons mean anything to me today (and I guess they do)- it’s that part. But I am still not saying it right. But I am still not getting the feeling across to you. I don’t think you can understand or at least I know I’m not eloquent enough to express it.
I told you I couldn’t explain it. Did I throw my medals away. No, I don’t think so, but would I have if given the chance, yes, probably. Do I display them on my wall?
No, but now that I have given this incompetent attempt at explanation of what they have come to mean…maybe. I am really not sure. But I understand why someone would and still detest the war they were earned in.
But I was there, I understand what I mean.
TV