[QUOTE=Belowjob2.0]
Shayna’s claim: McCain’s not too sharp.
[/QUOTE]
Leaving Martin out of this for a moment, like I said before, people understand that someone like Senator McCain can’t be a dummy. So if Shayna had instead said, like Diogenes that “we know McCain’s no dummy - why is he getting flustered like this?” she’d be asking a much more honest question - and one that even McCain supporters will concede is a fair one.
I don’t think calling McCain a dummy is fair pool.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
Last I checked I don’t have any obligation to cite an opinion. I don’t need a damn thing to be accepted by you or anyone else. A church is very much shaped by its leaders, and the leader of Obama’s Church is most definitely a bigot.
I’m not saying I’m against providing cites–when I’ve made a factual claim. But it’s almost impossible to prove someone is a racist, even someone who is a self-proclaimed racist. Racism is something that is only known for truth within the person, there’s no way–no actions, that can prove someone a racist or exonerate them from a charge of racism. That’s why I’m not going to get into a battle of semantics over whether or not Rev. Wright is a racist. I don’t feel one can make a factual claim as to whether or not someone is racist–you can make a statement of opinion, which is what I did. One doesn’t need to cite an opinion.
[/QUOTE]
But, you’re expressly basing that on his public statements, and his statements are not racist. (Some of them are foolish but that’s a different matter.)
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Huh.
Very interesting cites, E-Sabbath. They rather prove my point - that the Bush administration is funding condom distribution, and that the successful Uganda program that we both admire makes abstinence and fidelity cornerstones of its efforts.
[/quote]
Huh? Where are you getting that the US funds condom distribution? All they’r willing to fund in Uganda is Abstinence Only and they’ve actively tried to reduce the availability of condoms. The Bush administration has been undermining and undoing the success that the Uganda program had in the 90’s. What made the program work was condoms, not th abstinence BS which never works anywhere.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
I don’t think calling McCain a dummy is fair pool.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes people get dumber as they get older. McCain’s wild statements over the past year have got me wondering if that’s the case with him. Not only are McCain’s mental abilities fair game, they’re extremely relevant to all those voters who don’t want the country run by yet another fool who surrounds himself with a circle of unelected ‘talented advisors’: AKA ideological hacks.
[QUOTE=Belowjob2.0]
He’s a Senator from Arizona WHO’S RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT!
Shayna’s claim: McCain’s not too sharp.
Your retort: Doesn’t matter, his opponent’s a racist.
So your retort is both illogical and untrue.
** How do people become (and stay) so ignorant?**
[/QUOTE]
That wasn’t my retort, in my initial post I didn’t reply to her accusations at all. I was simply pointing out that anything she says must be taken with consideration to the fact that her only interest is to advocate for Obama, period.
She’s an extremely biased source of information on anything that has to do with this election.
I did respond in specific to the claims about McCain, which you seem to have ignored. My pointing out that Obama is a racist has nothing to do with “responding” to the comments about McCain, I was simply pointing out that I can go after her candidate just as much as she can mine–and that is all this thread is, her attempt to “go after” the opposition.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
But, you’re expressly basing that on his public statements, and his statements are not racist. (Some of them are foolish but that’s a different matter.)
[/QUOTE]
Again, whether or not a statement is racist is a matter of opinion.
I’ve never said Obama has made racist statements, I view him as a racist because of who he associates with and what organizations he associates with.
Jeremiah Wright is clearly a racist if you happen to look up his comments on Jews I think even you would agree. Or perhaps Reverend Wrights comments in regards to Italians, for example.
The idea that Jeremiah Wright is not out there saying racist things is ludicrous.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
Again, whether or not a statement is racist is a matter of opinion.
I’ve never said Obama has made racist statements, I view him as a racist because of who he associates with and what organizations he associates with.
Jeremiah Wright is clearly a racist if you happen to look up his comments on Jews I think even you would agree. Or perhaps Reverend Wrights comments in regards to Italians, for example.
The idea that Jeremiah Wright is not out there saying racist things is ludicrous.
[/QUOTE]
What did he say about either Italians or Jews that was racist? Enlighten us.
I’m using Martin’s impenetrably stupid remarks in this thread as the springboard for a GD thread.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Huh? Where are you getting that the US funds condom distribution?
[/QUOTE]
From the BBC link provided by E-Sabbath.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
All they’r willing to fund in Uganda is Abstinence Only and they’ve actively tried to reduce the availability of condoms. The Bush administration has been undermining and undoing the success that the Uganda program had in the 90’s. What made the program work was condoms, not th abstinence BS which never works anywhere.
[/QUOTE]
Gee, considering that the Uganda program is called ABC (and the A stands for abstinence) it would seem a multifaceted approach rather than a condom-only approach works best, from the available evidence.
[Quote=Squink]
Sometimes people get dumber as they get older.
[/QUOTE]
Bad news for you, isn’t it?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
What did he say about either Italians or Jews that was racist? Enlighten us.
[/QUOTE]
I find it upsetting that you are so ignorant of topical news. This is a one-off attempt by me to educate you, after this, I expect any poster in this thread to be informed of the basic information about this situation. Especially when we are talking about posters with such well-established egos as yourself–I expect a bit more than total ignorance of the situation.
This article from The Times gives a bit of information. Enough to at least establish what I am saying for the audience at home. Aside from that, I’m going to leave you to google and all of the free news sources on the internet.
It’s one thing to ask for a cite on a factual claim, it’s another to ask for a cite about a well known news topic. Certain things need to be assumed as topical, and if people can’t handle being informed then I suggest they get the fuck out of this thread or remain ignorant.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
What did he say about either Italians or Jews that was racist? Enlighten us.
[/QUOTE]
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6047006
Listen, I have said before that I don’t think Obama holds these views - but it is undeniable that Wright holds them. So perhaps you ought to just stop explaining it away, as I said before, and understand that Obama’s long association with this pastor and this church are problems because these views can’t be defended in any way that helps Obama.
So stop defending them. Wright is many admirable things - but this aspect of his rhetoric and his personality isn’t so admirable and can’t be defended.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Listen, I have said before that I don’t think Obama holds these views - but it is undeniable that Wright holds them. So perhaps you ought to just stop explaining it away, as I said before, and understand that Obama’s long association with this pastor and this church are problems because these views can’t be defended in any way that helps Obama.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t believe that anyone who associates with a racist is in fact a racist.
I think a lot of us probably have family members who have bigoted, racist views. I’ve known a few who make bigoted/racist remarks at family gatherings. Sometimes I’ll try to argue with them, sometimes I just let it pass.
The problem is, I can’t really choose my family members. When it comes to older family members, I often can’t avoid associating with them for fear of offending the rest of the family when it comes to family gatherings.
If these comments were coming from Obama’s crazy uncle Ed, or his cousin, or et cetera–then I wouldn’t hold them to reflect Obama’s views at all.
But a pastor isn’t dissimilar from a political leader. We choose who we support as political leaders, we choose our pastors. Going to church is entirely voluntary.
If I supported a candidate from the American Nazi Party, I think it’d be fair to say that I should be regarded as racist. Even if I have never been observed saying racist things, my association with such a party and candidate would be reasonable basis to argue that I’m racist.
I just find it very hard to believe that a man as smart as Obama has listened to this spiritual mentor’s speeches for twenty years and never once thought, “maybe this isn’t someone I should be associating with.” It’s one thing to be against Israel’s actions in regard to the Palestinians. I’m pro-Israel, but I can understand being upset by their actions. It’s another thing to publish a newsletter with articles in it written by leaders of terrorist groups who have as one of their political platforms the destruction of Israel as a state. These aren’t people who have rationally come to the conclusion they dislike Israel, these are terrorists who hate Jews and Israel in particular.
Associating with those kinds of people should raise serious questions. Apparently Obama had no problem with his pastor associating with such people.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I find it upsetting that you are so ignorant of topical news. This is a one-off attempt by me to educate you, after this, I expect any poster in this thread to be informed of the basic information about this situation. Especially when we are talking about posters with such well-established egos as yourself–I expect a bit more than total ignorance of the situation.
This article from The Times gives a bit of information. Enough to at least establish what I am saying for the audience at home. Aside from that, I’m going to leave you to google and all of the free news sources on the internet.
It’s one thing to ask for a cite on a factual claim, it’s another to ask for a cite about a well known news topic. Certain things need to be assumed as topical, and if people can’t handle being informed then I suggest they get the fuck out of this thread or remain ignorant.
[/QUOTE]
Nothing you linked to cites Wright as saying anything racist. Criticizing Israel does not make a person antisemitic and it’s dishonest to suggest that it does.
The best anyone can seem to do to support allegatuions of racism against Wright is to say that he said the ancient Romans “looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans.” It’s a mild imprecation against ancient Romans, I suppose but it’s incredibly weak evidence for sweeping accusations of racism.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Nothing you linked to cites Wright as saying anything racist. Criticizing Israel does not make a person antisemitic and it’s dishonest to suggest that it does.
The best anyone can seem to do to support allegatuions of racism against Wright is to say that he said the ancient Romans “looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans.” It’s a mild imprecation against ancient Romans, I suppose but it’s incredibly weak evidence for sweeping accusations of racism.
[/QUOTE]
He didn’t “criticize” Israel moron, he published articles written by leaders of a terrorist organization, that has as one of its key political platforms destruction of Israel. That’s not innocent criticism, you saying it is is either idiocy of the highest degree or complete ignorance of the organization in question (Hamas.)
Also, the idea that we can just laugh away the “garlic nose” comment is ludicrous. It also shows that Reverend Wright is pretty ignorant because it is clear he’s associating racial insults typically aimed at modern day Italians to Romans who lived 2,000 years ago–a people who probably would not be widely recognized as “Italian” if you were to transport them to the future.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6047006
Listen, I have said before that I don’t think Obama holds these views - but it is undeniable that Wright holds them. So perhaps you ought to just stop explaining it away, as I said before, and understand that Obama’s long association with this pastor and this church are problems because these views can’t be defended in any way that helps Obama.
So stop defending them. Wright is many admirable things - but this aspect of his rhetoric and his personality isn’t so admirable and can’t be defended.
[/QUOTE]
What views are you referring to? That Jesus was “lynched” by ancient Italians (i.e. Romans)? That’s the truth, isn’t it? Plus it’s a tad misleading for your article to say “he talks about the ‘garlic noses’ of Italians.” He was talking about the ancient Romans, not modern Italians.
Oh, and my father is Italian. My grandparents came over on the boat from Sicily. My last name is Italian. I think I would really have to work at it to get upset somebody once accused the ancient Romans of “looking down their garlic noses at Galileans.” Nobody needs to be offended at that on my account. I’ll get over it.
I think the OP makes a reasonable request in asking that this thread not be hijacked to discuss Obama’s association with Rev. Wright. Please take further discussion on this issue to a separate thread.
The OP has requested that this thread be closed as it’s wandered too far off topic. Feel free to start a new thread but I’ll close this one.