And thanks to you too Mr. Bellboy.
I know out of lifelong experience that good advice and wisdom can be pretty hard to come by. But make no mistake, good advice doesn’t come cheap.Books cost money. If you dont understand a word I’m saying go and look it up! Pay the few pennies to your local library and look it up! It always pays off to have a good wealth in words.
Here in the US, libraries are free, so I don’t get the “few pennies to the local library” comment. In any event, you post was an infantile evasion of the main points being debated. Saying that “the American people have no convictions” is a pretty fucking big generalization. I work for a civic education organization here in DC, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that a great many people are concerned for the future of this nation.
Grow up, Skippy.
Hoe, what exactly are we supposed to look up? Your posts are just a bunch of ramblings. Are we supposed to look up dim-witted, or pretentious, or maybe the word troll?
Dim-witted.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ellis *
**
Hrrm
I’m trying to figure out how to take this.
You appear to be equating hatred for apathy and how american’s seem to suckle at the teat of the media like some starving piglet with Bin Laden…
Either that or making a reference to Walker and his ‘intrest’ in Bid Laden (which is I kinda understand although is kinda comming out of left field after reading the article).
I agree with Hoe, I’ve been seeing too many people who are willing to listen to Ashcroft (the people in his state would rather have elected a corpse than him [think about it people a corpse]). Hell they’re not just listening to him, they’re agreeing with him. I’ve listened to some of the shit comming out of his mouth and I really have to wonder exactly how Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, or Pol Pot got started. Some of what Ashcroft is saying smacks of historic familairity.
What gets me is that it took CONGRESS to bring up the majority of the illegality issues of the our government’s responses to the terrorist act. Yes we need to take steps to ensure the protection of our citizens from forces overseas, but at the same time we’ve got to make sure we’re also protecting our citizens from ourselves.
Let us not get into discussing perceptional morality. Because if I ever felt that there was a significant threat to the continued survival of our nation you can bet your ass I’d be working in some military lab cooking up a influenza-ebola recombinate viral bio-weapon to annihilate whoever/whatever was threatening my nation, my family, my friends and my fellow citizens.
I wouldn’t give a damn if you wanted to hang me for what I did afterwards. The fact that my actions would have allowed there to be an afterwards in which to hang me is why I would hopefully have done it. To me, thats what convictions are. It could be worse, I could not have any then I’d just be a waste of meat.
So you’d be willing to kill Americans to protest government policy? You’d send anthrax in the mail and murder postal workers and elderly women to make your point?
I think the Bin Laden-Hoe comparison was made because both seem to despise Americans.
Dim-witted:
n. A long handled tool with a flat blade, used to weed, cultivate and loosen the soil.
Sorry CRorex, but simply having convictions is not good enough. Child molesters have convictions, NAMBLA has convictions, Aryan Nation has convictions, abortion clinic bombers have conictions. But you know what, we don’t live in a moral vacuum and there is nothing admirable about simply having convictions. That doesn’t mean apathy is admirable at all either, apathy is a moral mindset as is conviction for some cause. We can judge folks by what they believe and how they act, but not simply because they believe something.
Sigh. So much reading and so little understanding.
I said I was willing to unleash possibly the worst possible conception of ‘viral apocalypse’ imaginable by humans against any group of people (including their civilian population) that threatened to destroy the United States of America. I never said this would be my first repsonse to said people. But if we were backed into a corner and faced with our own destruction I would annihilate them first. I’m not saying I wouldn’t be bothered by it, I’m saying that I hope I would follow my convictions (which involve standing up for defending my nation and the people within).
Where did I say I would do this over (our [implied in your statement, any counter attack is against a {non specific} government policy]) government policy? I specifically said that I would do so if there was an extreme threat (now I feel i need examples because this point is confusing…). Say we were losing WWII, or a foe was landing forces on American soil or our populations were the subject of an indescriminate attack.
Yes I’m willing to kill CIVILIAN targets. Because this is a NATION or at least a PEOPLE or GROUP which by definition has SUPPORT and when it down to an us or them situation, I’m going to go with them.
Where the hell did you get the idea that I despise Americans? I despise any person or peoples who are willing to sit back and take a passive role in the world around them.
Thank you for making my point:P
Nobody here has any clue what the hell his convictions were, what he reasons for doing what he did. I was trying to point out exactly what you said.
And I’d like to point out nobody knows what the hell Walker’s convictions or other actions were. They will become apparent and he will live or die depending on what they were.
And we do live in a moral vacuum. Are my convictions to do whatever I can do to defend my nation, way of life or family evil or would my actions be evil. And to whom would the be evil to?
“John” seems to fall in a category I’ve heard referred to as “illegal combatant” (any lawyers out there have a description of this?). As in NOT a member of a Geneva Convention recognized armed force; or, a member of a U.N. recognized national armed force.
If “John” is a U.S. citizen, then I suspect he could be charged and quite easily found guilty of treason and we all know what the punishment for treason can be… death. Damned shame hanging isn’t available; but then, if he’s found guilty by a tribunal isn’t firing squad an option?
(If “John” was a covert U.S. operative, I don’t think we’d have ever seen his face or heard his name on the tube; he’d have gone before anyone could have interviewed him)
so wait a minute, who is for and against convictions? I am in the pro-convictions camp. People without convictions of any kind are worse than people with bad convictions because they are the perfect vehicle for people with bad convictions (damn, I hope that made sense).
Besides, didn’t Dante talk about a special hell reserved for neutral people? 
I wonder if we’ll have a John Walker Day, sort of like Guy Fawkes day in Britain. We’ll burn effigies of him and everything…
Here’s where its confusing.
I’m for convictions, doesn’t matter what they are. Having convictions is better than not having anything and just being indifferent and apathetic.
I’m not placing a moral connection with said convictions… Simply said that at least the guy has some.
Now we have several combative groups against me.
Good convictions = good. Bad convictions = bad. Somewhere in here is the universal morality bit.
There is the if convictions = good w/o moral judgment placed on them = bin laden = good.
(I’m probably misunderstanding but simply declairing that I want to murder US citizens over US governmental policy is taking even less of what I said in context).
And then there is the really bizzare faction that equates convictions with morally just positions…
As for John Walker…
If all he did was pick up a rifle and kill people opposing the Taliban then what exactly did he do to the people of the United States of America.
More specifically, what can the criminal justice system to do him.
You are aware that the terrorists specifically targeted and killed civilians on 9/11, right? So since you claim it is okay for individuals to kill civilians who support a government or group that said individuals oppose (granted you say only in the most dire circumstances) than what the terrorists did is a justifiable response to their situation according to your reasoning.
They were a group of people who felt that they were being oppressed by Israel and the United States and felt that talks were not going to solve their problems and going at their opponent using traditional military tactics would be ineffective. They used the only option they felt they had left to them.
So is what they did okay to you (not saying you like it, no one likes their side losing)? Were their actions an acceptable response to their situation?
Or is that any violence performed against American citizens is unacceptable due to our innate superiority?
John Walker will be charged with federal offences and tried in federal court, as he is not a member of the US military and thus not in a position to be tried by a military court or tribunal.
Not only did he enlist in the military of a foreign power (a rather large no-no which will result in the loss of US citizenship at the least), he took up arms against the US! He will most likely be tried for treason, and could easily expect to get a death sentence.
I have to feel terribly for his mother, but he made his choice and now he will get what’s coming to him. Hopefully that’s a bullet. I mean, Jesus, the people this asshole was in the basement with were killing Red Cross workers in the courtyard who were trying to recover bodies on Thursday! Oh, but I’m sure HE didn’t do it… Oh bullshit.
And Hoe? Go fuck yourself. No, really, go ahead. Try the Craft-matic if you can’t get the angle quite right. You seem to have no idea whatsoever about the character of the “average” American. We are brave, strong and willing to go to any length to protect what we have. We may seem fragmented and lazy and money-grubbing to outsiders, but that shit all falls away when we are threatened. Black, white, hispanic, asian- our multi-colored special operations boys are coming and there ain’t no stoppin’ us. Maybe you shouldn’t believe everything you see on Icelandic TV or in the movies. Dumbass.
me feel like caveman trying to understand ethics.
ok, I think I have it:
First Axiom:
Convictions: good
No convictions: the worst
Second Axiom:
Convictions with a moral basis: better
Convictions without moral basis: pretty bad
Third Axiom:
Convictions with a moral basis that are good: the best
Convictions with a moral basis that are bad: bad
CRorex, is this what you’re trying to say? If so, I agree.
Ok, time to start eating.
So how did you take what my posts said and manage to twist it into saying that terrorists are good people?
I’m wondering, to me after rereading it my points where simple and easy to understand.
And lets admit this much. Our reaction to the WTC attacks was outrage that someone attacked AMERICA not defenseless civilians. Hell, we’ve bombed the living crap out of civilians in every war since WWI. (We firebombed the crap out of Japan before we nuked it, we bombed the crap out of german civilians too.)
Ok now on to your responce.
You acknowledge my justification that I would do this in dire circumstances. What dire circumstances have we made against Bin Laden? If I remember correctly he initiated the first attack on the United States of America. We gave the cause he supported assistance in the beginning. So keep in mind that THEY started this, not america. If the Palestinians initiated this (and none of them is anywhere near this stupid) then there would be the possibility that there may be justification. However keep in mind that the US has been attempting to broker a peace for them and to get Isreal to back off on its demands (well we’ve been waffling on this over the decades).
Ok, first course good but not too filling.
Next
Umm how many times have i said this in this thred? 3, 4 times?
I’m an AMERICAN! I’m proud (mostly) of my nation (Dan Quale [shudder]). I’m proud of the ideals our nation was founded on. I’m even more proud of the fact that we are changing our current society as we realize newer and changing meanings behind our constitution and bill of rights. Over the years we’re striving, not very well or affectively (since nobody knows exactly how to achieve it) to freedom and equality.
By way of compairison: consider this.
We all agree that rape is bad. Isn’t it even worse and demand faster action when the rape has been comitted against your 5 year old daughter?
If you say no. Then that is your moral choice, you probably are a better human being than I am. If it was me, I’d probably end up in jail for murder, or at the very least for assault.
My changes in brackets .
I think thats what they are trying to say. shrug
As a side comment, anyone else feel that the greatest political move in the last 50 years was making Yasser Arafat the leader of the P.authority? All this managed to do was strip him of any power he had and make him look absolutly useless to both sides of the conflicts? He went from being a powerful rebel leader to be hated by bothsides.
sounds like you have come up empty-handed so far, asshole!
Does it? I know that the U.S. Code deals with enlistment in foreign militaries somewhere, but don’t know where. Do you have a site?