John Walker-Taliban Warrior

The BBQ Pit
41

Well I hope you’re hungry.
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Seeing as how I never said or implied such a thing, no clue.
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Yeah it was simple, you said targeting civilians can be justified.
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Actually I’d guess that the majority of people are more outraged because the people who died were defenseless civilians who had no say in middle eastern affairs and the terrorists needlessly and cowardly targeted them. Also how many times did we target civilians in war with the specific intent of terrorizing them (Dresden was a major military fuck-up)? But let’s assume that we did target civilians, how does that justify doing so again? Using your poor analogy farther down, plenty of people have been raped but that doesn’t justify more rape.
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Nope, didn’t acknowledge shit. I just restated your position.
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My opinion? Nothing. But the terrorists don’t feel that way. They feel that they are being unjustifiably oppressed by the U.S. and Israel (among others). And they feel they don’t have any other recourse than to perform terrorist acts. Which is what your justification for targeting civilians is: last resort. I don’t agree with their position or the tactics in general
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Sure, I agree on most of this, but again, they don’t. Just as two sides in any antagonistic situation don’t agree on the main points. So at what point does one side get the right to target civilians? You say when they don’t have any other options left. Well that’s how the terrorists feel.
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Try a culinary class.
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I’m sorry, you do feel that Americans are innately superior to people of other nationalities? Please clarify that for me.

Anyways I’m making a point that it’s never okay to target civilians. So my question is: if it’s not okay for them to do it then why is okay for us to do it?
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Sure rape is bad but the analogy sucks. No one says that rape is okay in any situation, but this debate is the targeting of civilians which you claim can be okay in certain situations.
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I probably would get far more upset than if it was someone else’s daugther. But I hope I would have the presence of mind to realize, all things being equal, her rape is not worse than some other person’s. I’d also hope that I wouldn’t let my emotions overcome my morals and start calling for heinous punishment of the person responsible that is beyond what is actually merited.

So to sum things up again: you say that targeting civilians can be justified in which case the terrorists actions can be justified as a legitimate attack in the course of war. Not saying they’re good guys or you like what they did, just that they had as much right to do what they did that a guy on the front line would have if he shot an enemy.

Or, it’s plain wrong to kill Americans ever, but sometimes it’s okay to kill other people.

42

This Walker kid is pitiful. If what I’ve read is fact, he is one of those people trying to find something to believe in. Prime meat for any whacko outfit. If he’d remained at home and not converted to Islam, he might well have ended up with the Army of God, Aryan Nation, or perhaps another, rabid, fundie-Christian loon group. He has already paid a large price for his lack of direction. It will get larger, as the administration almost lusts to have someone to make an example of and give the secret tribunals some authenticity.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens, assuming that he survives long enough to get back to the states.

f

43

IANAL, but the problem here is that we aren’t in a declared war with a recognized state. Walker was fighting for Al Qaeda, near as I can determine. Yes, this is certainly disturbing, but not treasonous, as treason applies to a state of declared war. I believe, from my Clancy/Grisham level understanding of these things, that he can be tried for sedition, which is also an executable offense. From the 'Lectric Law Library (which may or may not be the legal equivalent of the Easy Bake Oven):

I actually kinda feel sorry for these people, in a weird, illogical way. And the fact that a corn-fed twenty year old American signed up does a lot to remind us of the dangerous appeal of the message of Osama and his ilk.

44

No, it doesn’t. There have been cases where people served in foreign militaries without any jepoardy to their US Citizenship status. Generally, those forces must not be actively engaged in war against the US, or you WILL lose your citizenship. But there are still exceptions. For example, I read about an American of Japanese descent was trapped in Japan after Pearl Harbor, and was drafted into the Imperial Army. He even fought against US forces (unwillingly). He was allowed to keep his US Citizenship because he was involuntarily conscripted.
So there’s no real hard and fast rule here. Entering a foreign army, voluntarily or involuntarily, does not make you automatically lose your US Citizenship. It seems to be more an issue of whether you are voluntarily joining up to make war on the US.

If you want to research some of this, a good place to start would be looking around for the “Dual Citizenship FAQ” which describes the legalities of losing one’s US Citizenship.

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Ok, I’ve already explained myself and answered everyone’s questions at least one.

If you still don’t understand or want to argue to commune ghandi

46

Can this guy actually be charged with treason?

From the CNN article (which, obviously, may not be all the facts), there is no evidence that he actually fought against the US; rather he was already in a group that became an enemy to the US. He says he planned to surrender before the combat was taken to him, at which point he retreated (what his word is worth is doubtful, but is there other evidence?).

As for the loss of citizenship thing: the Taliban was not recognied by the US as a government, so he most certainly wasn’t serving in the military of another government, not that that really matters, but it is worth noting.

I’m sure they’ll get him on something. I’m just curious as to what.

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Most bizarre. :eek:

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Have to disagree on this convictions thing.
One of the valuable freedoms this country and other democratic countries give their citizens is the right to be left alone. In other words, to be utterly, totally apathetic.
“Either you’re for us or against us”, “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem” (think, really think, about what that’s saying) are totalitarian points of view. It is the underlying justification for dictatorships the world over. It is definitely NOT compatible with freedom.

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On the matter of conviction, I’m reminded of W.B. Yeats, who once wrote “the best lack all conviction, while the worst / are full of passionate intensity.”

On the matter of joining a foreign military, my understanding is that US citizens can serve in the militaries of other countries, as citizens of other countries can serve in the US military, but that they cannot accept a commission in another country’s military. That is, they will lose their citizenship if they become an officer.

On the matter of John Walker, I see no reason that he can’t or shouldn’t be tried and convicted of treason in a federal court, and duly sentenced to death. Certainly, he seems to have gone to Afghanistan to give aid and comfort to enemies of the US while still a US citizen. And I can’t imagine that any foreign country will put up too much of a fuss about the US executing a US citizen who bore arms against the US.

As for:

It’s not so much the words, as the fact that when you put them together they don’t express any sort of coherent and rational thought.

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I was not aware that the US had declared war on Taliban Afganistan. If they haven’t declared war how can you say Johnny boy took up arms against the US. He didn’t. America is not at war. It has never been declared. It’s stupid to declare war on terrorism, and think you can automatically attack anyone regardless of national boundaries.

America was illegally attacking Afganistan by not declaring war.

John Walker should not be set before a military tribunal and sentenced to death. He should be tried in a civilian court on the grounds of corraborating with terrorists. NOT for taking arms against his nation.

p.s. and a warm Fuck You to you too EJsGirl

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Hoe, don’t be a fucking moron.
Yes, there is no formal state of war, but all JW has to do is pick up a rifle and fire it in the general direction of an American soldier, while said soldier is executing his orders, and JW will be in direct conflict with America. It’s really that simple. Now, no one has demonstrated (that I’m aware) that JW has, in fact, taken arms against US soldiers, but he’s in a pretty perilous position none-the-less.

I’m eagerly awaiting your explanation of this assertion.

In general, here I agree with you, provided itt’s demonstrated that he did not engage in combat with US troops. If he did fight US troops, then he’s liable for treason charges (Still in Federal Court, though).

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I just want to add a couple of things to what Tranquilis said.

By saying he took up arms against the US. As Tranquilis pointed out, taking up arms against the US does not require a declaration of war by any country. It merely involves, well, taking up arms against the US.

Treason is defined in the US Constitution as “levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” (Art. III. § 3). You are mistaken if you believe that “levying War” requires a Declaration of War by the United States under Art. I § 8, cl. 11. The “levying War” requirement is for the guy committing treason, so the US’s declaration, or lack thereof, is irrelevant. How could a treasonous person possibly declare war using the constitutional requirements? It’s impossible.

As a citizen of the US, the tribunal is not available as far as I know. If he is charged, he will be tried in federal court. He could be charged with treason. The question is whether he ever fought against the US and if there are two witnesses to the treasonous activity that can testify against him.

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All right Hoe, enough.

Too much, in fact.

There’s limits to everything, even in the Pit.

While the requirements for debate and discussion here are not as rigorous as in, say, Great Debates, you cannot be continually ugly to people that don’t agree with your point of view.

You’re already said some things in other threads that raised my eyebrows. You’re entitled to your opinions but you’re not entitled to inflict them in this fashion on the rest of us.

Be civil or be gone. It’s your choice.

This is a formal warning. You will not get another one.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

54

Just to throw another log on the fire, but what is the legal opinion on this?

Let’s say he can’t be tried for treason, but what about murder, offering mob-like protect services (Taliban not kill you if you do what we say) and a slew of other crimes. Hell, I bet he could be charged with tax evasion if he didn’t file last April from his training camp.

To make things short, this dipshit will be in jail for the rest of his life, one way or another. There are 100’s of laws he has broken, I am sure, as an American.

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The sad thing is that he was trying to find something to believe in, just like the college kid war protester, desperate for something to believe in, who thinks this situation is somehow equatable to Vietnam and doesn’t realize that the difference is we were attacked. This kid did not go over there, from what I understood, because he was against the US. He went, initially at least, as an honest student of Islam. He read Malcolm X’s book, was impressed with the teachings of Islam to the point that he wanted to learn the language and immerse himself in the culture. I don’t think that this was necessarily wrong. Remember, he went over there well before the attacks took place.

His father thinks he was brainwashed. To some extent, I agree. This kid is probably too young to have thought out much of anything yet in his life (no offense intended to younger posters). He went over there very impressionable and was probably lectured ad nausium about how bad America is. If you can talk a kid into becoming a member of a cult in America, which happens all the time, you can do it there as well. The fact that he supports the US attacks is probably evidence that he has had his beliefs twisted while there. I’m not trying to make an excuse, rather just point out that his opportunities to think freely were probably few and far between

Now, as far as lethal punishment. IMHO, there are two situations that would cause me to agree with this. First, if he had any knowledge of the attacks beforehand but did not alert authorities in the US. I highly doubt any American, supporter or not, would have been entrusted with that information. Second, if he fired a weapon at US soldiers. There is no proof of either of these scenarios taking place although, there needs to be an investigation into how passive his role was in the prison uprising that killed an American CIA operative. If he was directly involved with that, he will probably do life or get executed.

I feel most sorry for his parents who encouraged him to study what he believed in and follow his dreams. Those shouldn’t be bad ideals.

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I agree with musicguy. I think that what John Walker did was wrong but I also feel sorry for him. I did a lot of stupid things when I was 20. When I heard and then read about him I just couldn’t help thinking that when he’s 25 (if he lives that long) he would think “Doh! I was a complete idiot.”
This is not to say that all 20 year olds are stupid but I do believe that we tend to be a bit more impressionable and rash in our decisions when we are younger. What seemed like a good idea at 20 often looks preposterous when we look back on it later. Of course he still must be held responsible for his actions. Very sad for all involved.

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SMOKE THE BASTARD!

I’m amazed at the “stuff” from the excuse crowd that surfs and provides their panalopy of reasons that little JW shouldn’t just be HUNG by the balls with care by the fireplace.

This dipshit (and his wacko partners) would love nothing better than to shut you up, shut your kids up, trash your religion, and kill your profitable business; they want you gone… like off the face of the earth.
Consider whom you decide to defend; it might make a very big difference.

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Well actually, I gave a couple of reasons why, if true, I think he should be executed. I would like to know the facts first though before I decide whether I feel someone should be killed. “Smoke the Bastard!”, without knowing anything other than what CNN reports, is pure emotion. Hopefully his jury will be more interested in the details.

59

New to this board, yadda yadda, but I’m going to chime in with my opinion on this.

I think your all missing a larger picture here.

Your only looking at this through the eyes of an American (don’t think I condone what they did, because I don’t)
but there is another side to this coin.

In the '80’s when Russia decided to try and make Afghanistan theirs, the United States took a back road and put the Taliban into power, so we’re responsible for them being there. Also, as time went by and we decided that we didn’t like the Taliban in power, the United States began funding terrorist groups to attack Afghanistan. Apparently, out of us giving money to people to blow up Afghanistan’s buildings and kill their citizen’s some people decided that they didn’t like us (can’t figure out why -sic-) and decided that they don’t want us there anymore. So they wage their war on us through terrorist methods which I’m sure we taught them at some point. In other words they’ve been engaged in their own full out War on us for quite some time, not since Sept. 11. War: A conflict in which civilians and not just military personel or bases are targeted. We are now engaged in a military movement or torture tactic on Afghanistan (see below). They’re fighting to keep, we’re fighting to look good.

Secondly, it wasn’t even the Taliban who crashed a plane into the WTC towers. Yes, towers, the World Trade Center is still there. It was the Al Quada (sp?) that did so, the terrorist organization lead by Bin Laden. The Taliban simply recieves money from Bin Laden. The whole bombing Afghanistan thing started when the Taliban refused to give any knowledge, if they even had any, of his location so we decided to fall to brute tactics and pound it out of them. Oh yeah, it’s completely illegal for us to go into Afghanistan and retrieve Bin Laden by the Geneva Convention and even US Law. If we straight out kill him that’s even worse, that’s just murder. No two ways about it here, we’re even kidnapping Bin Laden or murdering him. So morals don’t even apply here. It’s revenge, pure and simple. There is no justice in this type of situation.

Thirdly, the Northern Alliance that every one seems to be rooting for is actually the original government that we kicked out of power. So in ten years when this happens again, you can blame the US Government.

Fourth, as far as convictions go, remember the first paragraph. These people are fighting those that remind them of Hitler, Pol Pot and Mussolini or Stalin. We’ve been funding people to slaughter them with car bombs and snipers for years. There is no black and white in this world, there’s only struggling shades of grey. Those same people that are killing the Taliban and Afghanistan citizens are doing so because the Taliban began oppressing them after their rise to power. Everyone has a reason for doing something and to them I’m sure that reason is in the right.
This is about survival, not good or evil. There is no good or evil in this world there’s only these flawed little beings running around on the ground screaming at each other over the most basic of things; religion, land, or just who has more shit than the other. So it all comes down to kill or be killed. To advance or to fall. No matter how much humans cry about how they’ve risen above animals, they’re just the same, except animals don’t kill each other over whose God or Gods are real.

Now, I know the counter-argument to this idea, and that’s well, what about the people in soup-kitchens, spending their afternoons and weekends giving shelter to the needy, or who do genuinely good things. Simple answer to that too. They can afford to. In these days in America, we don’t need to go out and claw tooth and nail for food or shelter. We don’t have to worry about whether or not another human is going to come into our homes and eat us because they haven’t had dinner lately. Strike that, we do, simply because there are those of us who are fighting tooth and nail for shelter or food but we don’t see them because we’re comfortable in our little homes with central air and our fast food jobs and PS2, yeah, even me, I’m not pulling a better than thou trip, I’m just hopefully pointing out some things. I suck, I know it. I digress, anyways,we just turn a blind eye to the bad things that we do and go about living our little lives as if they’re important while bad shit is happening to us or we’re doing it to someone else. The scales are just to small or to grand for most of the people in America to pull their heads out of their asses and notice. When someone points their finger at those of us in the US, and everyone in this country cries and screams about how they didn’t do anything to them, why do they do things to us?

By being a member of the US, by buying items and paying the sales tax you are buying the bombs for the US to drop on other countries, or the LAWs for the terrorists to fire at the Civic Centers in another country. Realize this before you whine about someone retaliating at us for what we’ve done to them. And they had better realize in nature, which is what this is as we are no matter what ideas of higher powers or whatever are natures children, power equals domination and domination equals extinction for the less powerful animals. We are currently the most dominant force in the world. In other words, they did not know who they were fucking with.

Nailbomb
-Give me Christ or give me Hiroshima.-

60

This has been addressed dozens of times on the SDMB, but once again, enlisting in a foreign army does NOT cause an American to lose his citizenship. I am personally acquainted with Americans who enlisted in foreign armies who have letters from the U.S. State Department saying “you are still a citzien in good standing.”

Does anyone have any evidence that this John Walker guy actually fought against the United States? If not, what’s the case for treason?