Jose Canseco to the HOF? Yay or Nay?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Good debate -

For me, it comes down to the line being drawn somewhere - and I think that the line gets drawn just on the other side of Jose Canseco.

The debate gets interesting when you look at things like “best player in baseball” and other such terms - was anyone better than Ruth during his time? How about Mays? But still, Hall of Famers emerged from those time periods - Jose is sort of the opposite, b/c he was (IMO) the most feared hitter in all of baseball for a (short) stretch, and maybe the best player in the league. In short, he was nasty during that time.

However - his off-field problems, plus the lackluster finishing years and attitude, result in my ‘vote’ going to nay. His numbers are very solid - but not unreal by any stretch of the imagination.

I think it’ll get really interesting with players like Bagwell and Glavine in the near future.

(btw - essvee, I’ll submit the good Doctor as the biggest waste of talent ever)

42

if you refer to gooden, dub 56, he’s right up there. but the difference between him and canseco/coleman is that he cared, he wanted to win, he was competitive. dope took him out of his game. supreme indifference kept the other two from reaching great heights.

43

I’ll definitely agree with that - the difference between the two situations is huge.

I still think Doc Gooden was the bigger waste of talent, although all three are/were huge losses to sports.

44

First off, in determining whether or not a player belongs in Cooperstown he must be judged in comparison to players of his position. Of course it makes no sense to compare Canseco, an outfielder and DH, to Vizquel. However, RickJay I must strongly disagree with you on Omar Vizquel. He absolutely belongs in the HoF. Let’s look at numbers:

Vizquel: .264 career BA, .340 OBP, 919 runs scored, 1761 hits, .691 OPS, .983 fielding %, 2741 putouts, 5080 assists, 1151 double plays, 13 full seasons, 1775 games, 9 Gold Gloves

Mystery Player #1: .262 career BA, .337 OBP, 1257 runs scored, 2460 hits, .666 OPS, .978 fielding %, 4249 putouts, 8375 assists, 1590 double plays, 19 full seasons, 2573 games, 13 Gold Gloves

Vizquel has a higher career batting average, on-base percentage, on-base/slugging percentage, and fielding percentage than our mystery player and has won the Gold Glove for 69.2% of the seasons in which he has played. The mystery man won the Gold Glove in 68.4% of the seasons in which he played.

You might have heard of the mystery player. He will be ensrined in Cooperstown this summer. His name is Ozzie Smith. Statistically, Vizquel is more deserving of a spot in the Hall than Ozzie but he likely won’t get there.
Here’s another HoF anomoly for you:

Player A (2B): .266 career BA, .371 OBP, .794 OPS, 1833 hits, 224 HRs, 864 RBIs, 1033 runs scored, .984 fielding % at his primary position (.983 fielding % overall), 4 Gold Gloves, 1 HR title, 17 seasons, 2008 games

Player B (2B): .260 career BA, .299 OBP, .667 OPS, 2016 hits, 138 HRs, 853 RBIs, 769 runs scored, .983 fielding %, 8 Gold Gloves, 17 seasons, 2163 games

Which one of these players is in the HoF? If you guessed Player B, you’re correct. The Veterans Committee chose Bill Mazeroski last year. You might be surprised who Player A is, even though he was arguably the best second baseman of his era. His name is Bobby Grich, a six-time All Star with the Baltimore Orioles and California Angels from 1970-86. All this goes to show that some deserving people make the Hall while other players more deserving may well not.

45

Yes, I’ve seen the Smith-Vizquel comparison before. They’re superficially similar. Let me be completely clear on this: Omar Vizquel is not even close to Ozzie Smith. They are not even remotely comparable. Comparing Vizquel to Smith is exactly the same as comparing Buddy Bell to Mike Schmidt.

Well, no, not really, he doesn’t.

What you are forgetting to mention is that Omar Vizquel has played the bulk of his career in the highest offense baseball has ever seen; Ozzie Smith did not.

The main difference is this; Omar Vizquel is a bad hitter, and he has ALWAYS been a bad hitter. He has been a below average hitter every year of his entire career except one. In every single year he has played, except for 1999, Vizquel’s OPS has been below the league average - way below, in most cases. For his career, Vizquel’s OPS has been 18% worse than his league. Ozzie Smith, on the other hand, ranks better than Vizquel standing 13% below his league average, and on three occasions getting better than his league.

Furthermore, Smith was actually BETTER than his league at getting on base, having a .337 career on base percentage when his league averaged .328. Vizquel is at .340 in a .341 league. OBP is the more important half of OPS. If you properly compare these players to their competitors, it is quite obvious that Smith was the superior offensive player; he got on base more relative to his league, leading to a higher OPS relative to his league, and he was a much better basestealer (79% to Vizquel’s 71% success rate.)

Overall, Vizquel created (up to 2002) 4.06 runs per 27 outs, while Smith created 3.73… but Smith was playing his career in a league where teams scored FOUR runs per game. Vizquel has played most of his career in a league where teams scored FIVE runs per game. If you do not consider that fact, then you will be wrong about every comparison between a player from the 90’s AL and a player from the 80’s NL. You’d have to conclude all the best hitters in baseball history played in the 1990s and 1930s, which is sort of ridiculous. During Vizquel’s career the American League has been nothing like the NL was in Smith’s time; if you don’t believe me, look it up. If you adjust the two player’s numbers for the offensive levels of their leagues, Smith is quite a bit ahead of Vizquel. And Smith played 2573 games, while Vizquel has played 1775 and will be hard pressed to get to 2573, given that he didn’t play well last year and is 35.

As to defense, while Vizquel was certainly a great defensive shortstop, he wasn’t Ozzie Smith. Smith was the best ever; Vizquel’s numbers are good, but Smith’s are just astonishing.

If you really LOOK at the numbers and actually analyze what the two players did to help their teams win, Smith had BETTER offensive numbers than Vizquel, he did it over a much longer career, he ran the bases better, he had a better glove than anyone, and he had a better peak, too. Just how does Vizquel even compare?

Or if you don’t like numbers, ask yourself this: Ozzie Smith was quite obviously the best shortstop in the NL in 1987. He was the best shortstop in the NL in a lot of years, clearly the best in the league during his prime, and in a lot of those years was the best shortstop in the major leagues. Has Omar Vizquel EVER been the best shortstop in his league? Has he ever been close? To my mind, Vizquel gets wiped out by Smith on the Keltner List, easy.

I will freely concede that Grich was a better player than Mazeroski. But you’re totally wrong on Vizquel; he does NOT have better numbers than Smith. He has inferior numbers. Vizquel is not Smith’s equal, and he isn’t a good HoF comparison.

46

Let’s not even get started on the Veteran’s Committee inductions. That’s a whole can of worms that probably deserves it’s own thread for backroom deals, getting in buddies, and basically watering down the talent pool in the Hall.

47

Regarding Kingman, my point wasn’t to say that Canseco and Kingman were similar players. It was to point out that I don’t think Canseco was that much better than Kingman to warrant HOF induction.

I think getting a ball bounced off your head for a HR qualfies one to be called a butcher. He was a good RF defensively for about 5 years.

48

The incident did inspire an excellent ESPN “Baseball Tonight” commercial though. They posed a Ranger’s bobblehead doll over the caption “A Re-creation” and then bounced a baseball off the poor doll’s bobblehead. Pure genius.

49

First, re: the book. I’m so sick of hearing about the “sanctity of the locker room”, because apparently it only protects star players. Case in point: Ruben Rivera. He stole Derek Jeter’s glove and sold it to a memorabilia dealer. He got caught, and the Yankees cut him. Now, if what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room, why did this story get out? Surely it wouldn’t look odd if the Yankees just cut him and said “He didn’t fit in with our plans”. But no, the story gets out.

That said, I doubt the book will ever come out.

And re: the HOF, I say nay. But I will always remember Canseco fondly as my favorite player since I got into baseball when I was 8, and also because he signed an autograph for me at a minor league game a mere week before he retired.

50

Just like I say: The 80’s guys are getting shafted big time in the HOF voting. They can only find 4-5 players worthy in the HOF that played throughout the 80’s?

51

Just like I used to say: The 80’s guys are getting shafted big time in the HOF voting. They can only find 4-5 players worthy for the HOF that played throughout the 80’s? Rafael Palmeiro is in big trouble when they get to the 90’s.

52

Just like I used to say: The 80’s guys are getting shafted big time in the HOF voting. They can only find 4-5 players worthy for the HOF that played throughout the 80’s? Rafael Palmeiro is in big trouble when they get to the 90’s.

53

Just like I used to say: The 80’s guys are getting shafted big time in the HOF voting. They can only find 4-5 players worthy for the HOF that played throughout the 80’s? Rafael Palmeiro is in big trouble when they get to the 90’s.