edwino, excellent info. Thanks. I was just under the impression the savior was born, instead of growing into it. (Yeah, Christian-centrist, but I don’t know any Jews)
One more thing. Does the person have to get ALL Jews to follow him, or is it a majority type deal? Could it be as few as it takes to rebuild the Temple? I’m curious because in this day and age it would seem impossible to get every Jew on board, unless you were a really good salesman. Hell, us Catholics argue frequently over whom should be Pope or Cardinal, and those are mortal titles!
Or would it be something where once the messiach is on his way, God would fill the hearts of doubters to indeed follow him?
Abortion is Jewish law is not a cut-and-dried issue.
There are times where abortion is forbidden and there are times where it is mandated.
Abortion is generally prohibited in halacha (Jewish law). However, there are certain circumstances where it may be permitted (possible genetic defects being one reason). There are other cases where abortion is actually mandated by halacha, such as in cases where the life of the mother is at risk.
I’m not sure what the connection to the messiah is in this question. The messiah will be an earthly king born of two normal human parents. He will be a direct-male-line descendant of King David. He will perform the tasks that the messiah is required to perform. What if he’s aborted? Then he’s not the messiah.
In Christian thought, Jesus was the Messiah from Day 1. There was no other possibility that anyone else could have been the messiah. In Jewish thought that is not the case. There isn’t any one person “destined” to be the messiah. The messiah will be the first person who comes along and meets the requirements. An example of this can be seen from Bar Kochba, who was a potential messiah who lived in Israel during the revolt from Rome at about the year 150. Rabbi Akiva, one of the most respected Talmudical sages ever (you can hardly turn two pages of the Talmud without coming across his name) thought Bar Kochba was the messiah. But when he was killed, it was apparent to all that he wasn’t it. He was a “failed messiah.”
So, in short, it’s not possible for the messiah to be aborted because if he is, then he obviously wasn’t the messiah (because he didn’t fulfill the requirements).
Thanks for the backup to others Zev. Being Catholic, and again knowing no Jews, I felt the question was valid to get the Dope. Being Catholic, I just assumed any savior of any religion would be pre-chosen. I’ve since had my ignorance in this matter crushed, ground up and mixed into my cookie dough. And I must say, the cookies taste pretty good.
But how will the messiah know he is the messiah? It is logically possible that I am a direct-male-line descendant of King David. If so, if I were the messiah would somehow God tell me this? Or is it just a matter of me performing the tasks that the messiah is required to perform?
Well, presumably the same way that any prior hero or prophet has known that he was appointed – God will tell him (or her), and tell him what to do. It’s unlikely that an individual will bring about world peace and harmony without some divine direction.
Look at the examples we have from the biblical texts:
Example 1: Moses stumbles on a burning bush that tells him that he is assigned to go to Egypt and change history. Moses tries to refuse, several times, and tries to deny himself that role, but he finally accepts the task God has given him.
Was Moses pre-chosen? fore-ordained? yes and no. God obviously knew what was going to happen, but Moses had the freewill choice of accepting or not accepting the mission. What if Moses had been killed as an infant when Pharoah ordered the death of the firstborn? Then he wouldn’t have been the one to free the Israelites in the Exodus. Did God direct things so that Moses survived Pharoah’s infanticide decree? Answer: only partly. Moses’ mother saved him by putting him into a basket of bullrushes, that was her choice and her decision. God presumably helped subtly, not letting the basket drown, directing it to Pharoah’s daughter, etc.
Example 2: The prophet Samuel tells young David that he will be the next king. What if Goliath had killed David rather than the reverse? Then he wouldn’t have been the hero-king. Did God help David kill Goliath? Again, not overtly – David did that on his own.
Example 3: Various other prophets and judges are surprised by being summoned to a divinely-appointed task. One thinks immediately of Gideon and Samuel, for instance. What if they had been killed before accepting (or fulfilling) their tasks? Then history would have been different. Did God direct history to meet His ends? Not really, the Jewish answer (from any branch) would be that people have free will and that’s what set down history.
So, if you will, think of God as having a Master Plan that occasionally calls for specific human beings (or groups thereof) to take on appointed tasks. Those chose can accept or reject the tasks. The details of history are based on human free will.
Can any devout Jew confirm this? In the all kinds of unlikely scenario I am the messiah, all God would have to do is send a single angel to clue me in. Would God do this, and after that it would be a free will choice on my part?
I suppose it is possible that you might be a direct-male-line descendant of King David. It’s possible (I suppose) that I am. Any Jew today who is not a kohen or Levite could (potentially) be a Davidic descendant.
As to how will we know? CK hit on the answer. There is a tradition (based on the end of Malachi 3) that Elijah will come before the messiah and herald his arrival. Elijah is a prophet and would certainly know if so-and-so is of Davidic descent.
Furthermore, it only logically follows that one who is of Davidic descent could fulfill the requirements as enumerated by Maimonides. After all, just try to imagine the scene: A king arises who gathers the exiles, rebuilds the Temple, causes the entire world to worship God and fulfills all the other requirements. Then Elijah comes along and says “Nope, sorry, wrong parentage.” What then? Do we then throw down the Temple, send everyone back into exile? It really only logically follows that someone who performs the necessary tasks is a Davidic descendant.
Thanks for the great information, Zev. One question, are there any of King David’s line still around? I mean any that be verified as being a direct line descendant ?
Well, as a matter of faith, they are around. After all, if God promised us a messiah, and he can only be a DMLD of David and God fulfills His promises, then it logically follows that there are DMLDs of David still around.
Other than that, I don’t know of anyone who is a DMLD of David. There are certain individuals through the Middle Ages who are, by tradition, said to have been Davidic descendants. If one could prove descent from one of those people, one may have a case. But I don’t think anyone today has any proof that geneaologists would consider completely conclusive today (although I could be wrong).
I don’t know about that Dio. After all, Jesus lived only about 350 after Zerubabel (who was a descendant of David). That amounts to about 12 generations. Furthermore, an understanding of the Talmud (especially the last chapter of Kiddushin makes it clear that people did keep genealogical records (and that was compiled after Jesus’ time).
Are you asking if you could potentially be the messiah? If so, the answer is very simple: Yes, assuming you are a DMLD of David. And it is possible that you are provided you don’t fall into one of the following groups:
[ul]
[li]Gentiles[/li][li]Converts[/li][li]Kohen[/li][li]Levite[/li][/ul]
If you don’t fall into one of those groups, you could potentially be the messiah. However, I wouldn’t worry about a angel’s whisper cluing you in. Start with the requirements as listed by Maimonides for the messiah:
[ul]
[li]Be a Torah-observant Jew who keeps the commandments [/li][li]Cause the Jews to follow you and to return to God’s Torah[/li][li]Gather in the exiles[/li][li]Rebuild the Temple[/li][li]Establish the Sabbatical and Jubilee cycles?[/li][/ul]
When you get finished with that, we can sit around and let Elijah determine whether or not you are truly a DMLD of David and, in fact, the messiah.
I think it’s because the Hasmonean dynasty- which ruled Judea in the century or two before the Romans - was not of Davidic descent, and did its best to blur the legitimacy of any supposed Davidic challengers.
Levi was one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Levites ran and maintained the Temple, when it existed.
Kohanim are descendants of Aaron, Moses’s brother. Both Aaron and Moses were in the tribe of Levi. When the Temple existed, they served as priests, conducted ceremonies, and sacrificed at the Temple.
The Messiah can’t be a Kohen or Levite because he has to be a descendant in the male line from King David, who was of the tribe of Judah. In Judaism your tribal status was/is passed down from father to son. After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, the only two tribes that still existed were the tribes of Judah and Levi. So, every Jew who isn’t a Kohen or Levite is assumed to be of the tribe of Judah. (It’s likely that there were individual members of other tribes who survived the destruction of the Northern Kingdom, and there are probably Jews living today who would be members of the other ten tribes, but playing the odds, the assumption is that everyone not a Levite or Kohen is from Judah.)
