Judaism, abortion and the Messiah.

Great Debates
1

I almost put this in GQ, but remembered there are different sects in Judaism. So, I guess there may be more than one viewpoint here.

To start, I’d like to request avoidance of references to politics (yes, we all know Bush is worse than Satan) and Christianity (we’re all fundies). Ok, that’s covered.
Now, I know a little about the Jewish faith, but am largely ignorant of it. One of the main tenets I’ve been led to beleive of it is that the Messiah has yet to be born. Therefore every male child born is the possible savior. Here’s where the abortion question comes in.

Save for secular Jews, how do practicing Jews justify abortion? Meaning from a religious standpoint? That’s pretty much it, right there.

Now, first, I could be completly wrong on this. If so, please set me straight.

Second, if it is true, is it more of a dividing line between secular and say Orthodox? If that’s the case I guess there isn’t much debate as the Messiah factor would be a moot point.

So what’s the Dope?

2

Correct me if I’m wrong (I don’t know a lot about Christianity), but wasn’t Mary aware that she was carrying the Lord’s child? In that case, I would think that a woman who knows she’s heavy with deity would just not abort. Of course, if she chose to, that would be her right as well.

And if she’s not aware, well, wouldn’t that kinda be like rape?

3

Nope.

BA

4

Well, Christianity and rape have been covered. Any ideas on Jewish teaching?

5

I’m not sure about the theology behind it, but I think in Judaism life begins at birth.

Look: abortions are perfectly legal in Israel, and besides a tiny American-inspired element none of the religious establishment has ever brought the subject up - and believe you me, they’re not afraid of making their displeasure known. I think the basic assumption is that the mother’s welfare is paramount, and that includes not forcing a baby upon an unmarried woman.

The Messaiah, the assumption is, will be able to take care of himself.

6

If you want Conservative and Orthodox Jews to participate in this thread, maybe Saturday morning isn’t the best time to start the discussion.

7

Didn’t think of that. But I trust someone will be along that knows enough of the teachings to let me know.

8

IANA Jew, but since I doubt there’s any set answer to this:

If we assume that there is a God - an omnipotent being - and that this God wants something to happen, like…oh, I don’t know, have a messiah born- I really don’t think that humans would be able to mess it up. So should our modern-day Mary begin to ponder the possibilities of practicing planned parenthood (…) - it seems to me that in the end God would still have His way.

Many Jews undoubtedly oppose abortion, but I don’t think that this issue has much to do with it; to say that humans have the ability to (even unwittingly) thwart God’s desires is to greatly diminish the perception that most people have of God.

One way, or another, He’s goin’ to getcha, getcha, getcha, getcha - or something to that effect.

9

Keep in mind, in Judism the messiah is a normal human with no godly component.

10

Exactly. More than that, one might say that Messiahood is retroactive - if a person fulfills the prophecies, then he’s the Messiah; if he doesn’t, then he isn’t. An aborted fetus would have a hard time bringing world peace.

11

So the Messiah isn’t born, but rather achieves that status?

12

IANAJ, and I’m sure some of our resident Jewish scholars will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that Christians focus on that aspect of Judaism much more than Jews do. It’s a very Christian-centric view of the other faith. It’s not Jews spend a lot of time worring about this.

13

Well, I’m not exactly worried about it. Like I said it’s a GQ that I figured would have differing opinion of the same answer.

14

I’m not sure. I’ve never been all that interested in Jewish Messianic trheology, as I feel it conflicts with my basic Zionism. All I do know is that the Messiah will come when God wills it, and that we know it’s him after he does all he’s supposed to do.

15

The Jewish Messiah is not a deity or a “son of God.” He’s just a human king.

Jewish beliefs about abortion.

As to the crux of the OP, if God wants something to happene it will happen, and as you suggested earlier, the Jewish Messiah not so much “born” as chosen. (although he does have to be a direct descendent of David…and whether a person meets that requirement is something only God could know at this point since there is no recorded bloodline of David anymore).

16

And in theory, would not devout Jews assume that there would be a huge number of descendents of David alive today? If so, even with abortion being legal God would have little problem finding a descendent of David to be the Messiah. And even if the Messiah was just a man, and not a deity incarnate, if God decided to choose who would be the Messiah before he was born, could not God send down angels to inform the woman bearing the human Messiah to tell her this, and after experiencing this miracle that woman would obviously decide to give birth to this child? As you stated, if God wants something to happen it will happen.

17

I forgot to add that according to Christian belief, even though Jesus was the Son of God, God had to send down an angel so that he could complete his mission. Joseph (the husband of Mary) was thinking of just abandoning her when he found out she was carrying a son that wasn’t his. A possible consequence of this was that Mary and her child would not be able to survive. As such, God sent down an angel to clue Joseph into what the truth was, and Joseph stayed with Mary and lied that Jesus was his son.

18

Exactly. The Messiah is more of a political figure than a religious one.

I seem to recall the stories saying that in each generation, one person is born who has the potential to become the Messiah. But that can’t happen unless the conditions are right and the right steps are taken.

I’m sure a much more knowledgeable Jew will eventually be along to correct me.

19

It is useful, when talking about the Jewish messiah (little “m”), to set aside all of your notions on Messiahhood learned from Christianity or Jesus, or for that matter, Sun Myung Moon or any other person claiming to be the Messiah (big “M”).

Wikipedia article on the Jewish messiah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah

Here’s what I was taught, back when I practiced Judaism. The Jewish messiah, the moshiach, will be a super-king of Jews (a King-zord if you will). He will unite the Jews and ensure that righteousness prevails throughout them. When this is accomplished, he will be the instigator for collecting all Jews in Israel and rebuilding the Temple.

Throughout history, many people have been held up or claimed themselves as the moshiach. Many of these (most famously Shabbetai Zvi) were forced into apostasy. Some (like Bar Kochba) just plain old died. Thus, they failed the final criterion, the rebuilding the Temple thingy. So, many Jews continue waiting.

In Reform and Reconstructionalist Judaism, though, they have gotten sick of waiting. With, as I understand, with the rise of Zionism, they have started to excise any mention of the messiah from the prayers. Where the very Orthodox Lubavitchers (many of whom claimed their Rebbe Schneerson as a moshiach) sing “We want moshiach now, we want moshiach now, we don’t want to wait”, the Reform and Reconstructionalist crowd see the establishment of the State of Israel (presumably with a capitol in Jerusalem) as a sort of fulfillment or something that has made the moshiach irrelevant.

The question of abortion in Judaism, as I understand it. Even for very religious people, life does not start before 40 days gestation. Before 40 days gestation, there is no questions about abortion, although presumably elective abortion is frowned upon because of God’s commandment to be fruitful and multiply. I believe that after 40 days, the life of the mother always takes precedence as, I guess, saving the mother gives you a chance to make more babies rather than stake everything on just that one.

The question about the moshiach and abortion is a question that makes no sense from a Jewish standpoint. Judaism is much more focused around study and righteousness leading a person on a path towards becoming a moshiach. While I’m sure there is eschatology about people fated to become the moshiach (the red heifer thing, IIRC), the fact is that any old person can walk in off the street, study hard, become a Jew, and perhaps then go on to lead the nation, round up all the Jews, inspire righteousness, and rebuild a temple.

20

Aside from the Messiah angle, I was under the impression that most abortions were considered self-mutilation and therefore prohibited. Is that incorrect?