The Old Testament contains many prophecies foretelling the coming of a messiah.
Jesus Christ claimed to be the messiah predicted by those prophecies.
Nevermind, for purposes of this thread, whether he actually was the messiah. My General Question is this:
In the thousands of years since those prophecies were made, has history recorded any other “messiahs” who claimed to fulfill them?
ask any cult leader…
Actually, between the first century BCE and the second century CE there were a number of claimants to the title of messiah in the region of Judea. Several were proclaimed by their followers and one or two were self-proclaimed.
Later, in around the tenth century, I think, there was a Jewish leader who was proclaimed the messiah, gathering quite a following before he died. (I cannot remember his name or actual dates, but can produce those this evening if the question is still unanswered by then.)
By Jewish reckoning, none of them (including Jesus of Nazareth) fullfilled all of the prophecies of the messianic prophesies in Jewish Scripture. (Before anyone starts to debate whether Jesus did or did not fullfill the requirements, please do a search of this Forum to see all the arguments that were laid out the last time this question came up.)
There have been a number of false Messiahs recorded in Jewish history (not counting JC, who we Jews obviously consider false). None of them fulfilled the Biblical requirements to be the Messiah.
In the early 2nd century, a rebel (against the Romans) leader by the name of Bar Kosiba, better known by his nickname “Bar Kochba”, was believed by many, including many prominent Rabbis, to be the Messiah (there is no evidence that he ever claimed to be it himself). However, he died in battle against the Romans and the Rabbis decided that he must not have been the Messiah after all.
In the 12th or 13th century, there is a published letter from Maimonides to the Jewish community of Yemen regarding the nature of the Messiah, as apparently someone there had claimed to be the Messiah, but he did not meet the Biblical definitions. Little else is known about the Yemenite incident.
In the 17th century, in Turkey, a man named Shabbatai Tzvi convinced many that he was the Messiah, but he never received any Rabbinical support. Eventually, the Turks, worried that he would begin to agitate for Jewish independence, gave him the choice of conversion to Islam or death, and he chose conversion. His following either converted to Islam themselves or went back to the Rabbis, now convinced of their denial of his Messianity.
In the 18th century, in Germany(?) a man named Jacob Frank claimed to be the Messiah, but he too did not fulfill the requirements that would have led to Rabbinical support of his claims.
Though his contribution to really bad pop music pales in comparison to his former partner, Kenny Loggins, Messina has continued to produce schmaltzy country/folk music albeit with a much more limited distribution than in his heyday, the 70’s.
Whoops! I misread the OP and thought the question was “Where’s JIM MESSINA now?”. My bad.
As far as messiahs go, however, I’ve always been a big fan of J.R. “Bob” Dobbs. Much more fun at parties than David Koresh or Jim Jones.
cmkeller, forgive me if I state something incorrect here, but don’t some people also say that the late Rabbi Schneerson (the “Lubavitcher rebbe”) was the Messiah?
Arnold:
You are correct. However, that situation is a bit confusing (mainly due to it’s being so recent; historical hindsight helps a lot), so I didn’t bother mentioning it.
It’s hard to say whether he has ever actually called himself the Messiah or if only his followers declared it. Also (and I personally find this very disturbing) there is a significant number of his followers who believe that “he will return.” (Second coming, anyone?)
The others’ stories are closed books, so I limited my post to them.
BTW, Mazel Tov on the wedding! I hope married life is treating you well!
Chaim Mattis Keller
I knew I could count on you guys, especially Chaim. People being people, I would have been very surprised if no one else had tried to step into the messiah shoes in the 2500+ years since the prophecies were made.
As a side question, is Jesus the only Jewish-messiah claimant who got a new religion based around him going? I’m not necessarily looking for a religion that thrives today, but have there been any that at least outlasted its originator’s lifetime?
Given that Islam is based in part on Jewish dogma, what’s the Islamic take on the messiah prophecies? Is that what they think Mohammed was, or are they waiting for someone too?
Five:
As far as I know, JC is the only one. Shabbatai Tzvi definitely still had some followers after his death, but I don’t think his small remaining following lasted more than one generation past it.
Well, we have some Islamic Dopers on the board who will hopefully answer these questions better, but here’s my understanding: Although Islam is monotheistic like Judaism, it does not believe that the Bible is true. Muslims believe that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the son of Abraham chosen for G-d’s favors. Since the Jewish Messiah is clearly a descendant of Isaac (through David), they certainly wouldn’t consider the Biblical Messianic prophecies to have any truth to them.
Do they believe Mohammed was a Messiah-like “savior”? Not as far as I know. They see him like the Jews see Moses, a prophet who revealed G-d’s word, and the greatest of them, not as the Jews see the Messiah.
Do they believe in a Messianic-like redemption? I think that’s a difference between Sunnis and Shiites. Sunnis, I think, don’t; Shiites believe that the twelfth Imam of Islam never died and will return to Earth someday to bring justice and enlightenment to the world, which I suppose is similar to the function that Jews expect the Messiah to serve.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Isn’t it a requirement for the messiah to be of the line of David? Just wondering here, but is there an accepted “line of David” arounf today? What would or does constitute proof of Davidic descent?
Actually his following lasted several hundred years. In the Moslem countries they constuted a separate subset of Islamic Jews. In the European countries, they were mostly officially Jewish (alot of controversy was caused by occasional discoveries of his followers). The Jacob Frank that you referred to was an follower of his.
Eventually, the “Sabbateans” were subsumed into Islam, or in some cases, returned to Judaism.
Ptahlis,
There are people around whose lineage can be traced back to David. However, it is unclear (to me at least) how the Messiah would establish his credentials. I would suspect that when someone was succesful in other aspects of his Messiah-hood his Davidic lineage would be assumed.
So what actually are the Jewish qualifications to be a messiah?
Ptahlis:
Well, as IzzyR says, I’m pretty sure there are some people today who can trace their lineage back to David; in any case, there are probably geneological records that can be traced. It’s pretty amazing what kind of information a determined person can dig up.
Also, I’ve been under the impression that (in Orthodox Jewish belief) Elijah the Prophet’s arrival will precede the Messiah’s and part of what he will do through his prophecy is clarify ambiguous lineage.
IzzyR:
Thanks for the corrections about the Sabbateans.
I don’t know about that. The Rambam (Maimonides) in his law relating to the person who it can be said “is assumed to be the Messiah” has Davidic descent as a precondition of that assumption, so most likely people wouldn’t support him as Messiah unless the Davidic descent can be proven concretely.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Chaim,
I don’t think any of the pretenders to the post so far have been able to trace their lineage back to David. This includes Shabsi Tzvi, who had some degree of rabbinic acceptance early on.
BTW, those who can trace their lineage back to David generally can trace it back to some famous person who, in turn, traced it back to some other person etc.
IzzyR:
I’d have a hard time believing that Rabbi Akiva would have said that Bar Kockba was the Messiah if he didn’t have knowledge that he was decsended from David.
Really? I’ll have to double-check my copy of “Triumph of Survival.” I was under the impression that he never had it. However, even if he did, I imagine it was tentative. You were talking about a person doing all the Messiah stuff and Rabbis assuming he was from David. Certainly this wasn’t true with Shabbatai Tzvi; he didn’t really do any of it.
Right…like Bustenai, or members of the family of the Hillel-family Nasi.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Chaim,
My recollection is that their lineage was through a maternal link. (The Reish Galusa in Bavel was paternaly descended.)
Considering that King David lived, what, 3000 years ago?, I would be kind of shocked if there is anyone of Jewish heritage who wasn’t descended from him in some way. The Jews have been pretty strict (compared to most people groups) about intermarriage, and anyone who still considers himself Jewish almost certainly has a lineage tracable to David through probably multiple paths.
Because of the branching out and crossing over of family trees, there are small towns where nearly everybody is related to everybody else only four or five generations ago.
Well, my source say the line of Hillel died out quite some time ago (at least by direct male descent- Gamaliel VI, died 425AD). And, for example, the british royal family has had several “breaks” in it, so barring a miracle, a direct male linage back to David would be kinda hard to believe, but- oh well. (If Hillel had accepted it, he might well have been a “successful” Messiah)
So, is there anyone now alive that claims he has a direct, unbroken line back to David? I would think that someone, by now, if he had such a claim, would have started the “monarchist party” in Isreal, to have himself made King. Heck, there is/was an monarchist party in both France & Italy.
I think it would be difficult to prove lineage from David.
Some Jews are Levites, claiming their lineage from Levi, the son of Jacob. Some Jews are Kohanim (priests), claiming lineage from Aaron, brother of Moses. Jews accept these claims pretty much without proof; the proof is, “My father told me that he was an X, so I am an X.” (Chaim may think this is blasphemy, but there are records of people who decided to upgrade themselves by claiming to be a Kohan when they immigrated to America, and there was no one to disprove it by saying, “I knew your father.”)
“Proof” of lineage that would satisfy a geneologist is another matter. Through the centuries, families moved and were evicted from country to country, and records were lost. Some Christian communities kept Church records of births, deaths, baptisms, etc. But Jewish communities didn’t, because those events weren’t “sacraments.” Even if records were kept, they were usually destroyed in the next pogrom or expulsion, or when the synagogue was burnt.
The acid test of the Messiah, however, is that the lion lays down with the lamb – that an era of peace ensues, that the dead awaken, and that God’s Majesty is recognized by the entire world. When that happens, no one is going to worry about checking lineage details.
A couple quick points:
-Jewish tradition (and Jewish reading of Biblical prophecy) does NOT posit a Messiah who is God incarnate. The Messiah is a person, not a god.
-Jewish tradition (and Jewish reading of Biblical prophecy) also does NOT posit the Messiah as a go-between, a middleman between God and human beings. Judaism says people have a direct line to God, without the need of intercession by saints or Messiahs.
So, just because Jesus is the only Messianic claimant with a (well, OK, several) significant religion build around him… in no way does that validate Messianic claims for Jesus under Jewish tradition.
To the contrary; the Torah has a fairly clear statement (I think in Deuteronomy) on how to tell a true prophet from a false prophet. (1) Anyone who comes along and says things different from what is said in the Torah, that person is NOT a true prophet (So, frinstance, Paul.) and (2) If a person says such-and-so will come to pass and it doesn’t, that person is not a true prophet (so, frinstance, predictions that Jesus will come again.)
I would very much like to get one of our Islam friends to comment on Islam’s take on a Messiah (distinct from a prophet?)
[Edited by CKDextHavn on 08-18-2000 at 07:45 AM]
cmkeller:
Aha! So, correct me if I’m wrong, when Christianity presents itself as Judaism fulfilled (or “postgraduate Judaism,” as Cecil once put it), does it cast John the Baptist in the role of Elijah?
I’m amazed I never thought about these things before. I’ve been an atheist for fifteen years, but as a kid I used to thump the Bible pretty hard. But my family and church never taught me much about Christianity’s Jewish underpinnings.