Over in GD we had a thread, and zev (you old wolf, you) corrected me when I mentioned that one of the prophesies in Isaiah was considered to be a Messianic Prophesy by Jews, also. Apparently, altho Isa. 7:14 is considered a Messianic Prophesy by Christians, it is not by Jews. However, I do know that Isaiah has several other Messianic Prophesies. Which are accepted are being such by the Jewish faith, and what other Books have others?
Well, this is off the top of my head. I don’t have a Bible handy, and will probably have to correct myself when I have the ability to look it up. That being said…
Some of Isaiah is messianic. Same with some portions of Ezekiel (especially at the end). Portions of Daniel as well. There are no doubt others. I will do a more comprehensive search at home and report back, or if Chaim, SDimbert or any of the others feel like pitching in…
Zev Steinhardt
Hey, I’m not that old… 
Zev Steinhardt
Thanks. I already had an idea which books had some Messianic P., but it is good to be confirmed. Awaiting more info.
I just did some research on this for DavidB and sent it to him as an email. Unfortunately, I lost all my old e-mails when I got laid off, but if he still has it in his inbox, I’d like to invite him to post it to this thread.
If he doesn’t do it by tomorrow night, I’ll try to recreate it myself.
CMK- thanks.
CMK: any luck?
Chaim, guys…any luck? Is this a “touchy” question?
Touchy? No. Long and tedious, yes.
You’re asking which prophesies in the book of Isaiah are considered messianic predictions by Jews? First, there are different groups that might accept different parts. Second,and more important, the book of Isaiah is long, and filled with prophetic stuff. The task of compiling would take many, many hours if not days and weeks. And finally, you really wouldn’t want a five hundred page response that listed verse by verse, would you?
I looked at this thread and shrugged my shoulders. No way I’m gonna tackle something like that, until I’m retired, and probably not even then. I don’t pretend to speak for CM or anyone else, of course, and perhaps such a list has already been compiled; but sheeeeeeeesh.
Unless you got a particular verse you’re interested in?
No, not a touchy subject. But when Chaim said he had already done the work, I was just going to let him post it. If he doesn’t do it in the next few days, I’ll start to work on it. As CKDextHavn said, it is long and tedious.
Zev Steinhardt
CMK – I just saw this thread (somebody should’a e-mailed me!). Anyway, here’s what he said:
Now, here’s what Maimonides has to say about the person who would become the Messiah. (Maimonides is considered the most authoritative source on the subject.) He says: “If a king should arise from the House of David, learned in Torah and observant of its laws, and he compels the Jewish people
to observe its laws and fights the wars of G-d, it can be assumed that he is the Messiah. If he builds the Holy Temple and gathers the exiles of Israel, he is certainly the Messiah.”
Now, leaving aside the actual number of scriptural references involved here, let’s evaluate the seperate requirements: First and foremost, the person in question must be acknowledged as a king. According to Jewish law, such a thing can only be done by a duly constituted Jewish court, which would have needed to receive the laying-on-hands ceremony in a continuous line from Moses. As of the current day, this line was broken in approximately the 3rd century, under Roman persecution. The only surviving person who could do this would be Elijah the Prophet, who, according to the Jewish religion, never actually died. Thus, the prophecy in Malachi 4:5 - “Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great
and awesome day of G-d.” That day being the day of the Messiah’s reign. So it appears that a prerequisite of the declaration of a Messiah would be the arrival of Elijah, who would presumably confer the laying-of-hands on deserving Rabbis and thus convene a proper Jewish court. Once such an event happens, you can be pretty sure that this court will be in a state of perpetual readiness for a legitimate heir to the throne of David to claim the throne.
Now, let’s assume this has happened: a man arrives and claims he’s a descendant of David through Solomon and that he should be king over Israel. The court examines his lineage and finds it to be legitimate. Most likely they would declare him king…but a court made up of rabbis would probably not agree to enthrone a man who is not himself observant of Torah law. So most likely the first several requirements would go hand-in-hand. If such events occur, i.e., the coming of Elijah, the re-establishment of a Jewish court, and the enthronement of a king, these might compel people who were previously non-observant to begin re-evaluating their outlook on religion. One might also consider the verse folloowing the one I quoted above: “He will return the hearts of the fathers toward the sons, and the hearts of the sons toward their fathers…” Elijah, in his emergence, is supposed to being about a new spirit of peace between generations. This could mean that people will be more receptive to their ancestors’ beliefs. Or, perhaps this new king will compel observance through an educational crusade, or through inspiring military victories over non-believers. Until it happens, it’s hard to say. But the odds of all this occurring through a single person are not as high as it would seem from the sheer number of prophetic statements, because the events would not be what one would describe as coincidence.
…
Now, after a few weeks of research, are at least some
of the Scriptural sources for Jewish Messianic beliefs:
The prophecy of Balaam in Numbers 24:14-19 is considered to be a dual prophecy: the first half of each verse about David himself, and the last half of each verse about the Messiah. However, there’s very little concrete in this, except to imply that Israel will dominate other nations at
the End of Days.
A little clearer is Deuteronomy 30, which states that after all the curses in the previous several chapters have come true, (which will occur in a “later generation”) if the Jews repent and return to G-d, G-d will show the Jews greater favor. Specifically noteworthy are verse 3 and 4, which refer to gethering in scattered exiles. Prophecies that contain references to an ingathering of exiles elsewhere in Scripture can therefore be assumed to refer to the Messianic era.
Probably the one that most of the detail in Maimonides’s description of the Messiah himself is Isaiah 11. Verse 11 of that chapter mentions an ingathering of exiles, marking this as a Messianic prophecy. The chapter opens by saying that “A rod shall come forth from the stem of Jesse, and a
branch shall sprout from his roots.” Jesse is the father of David; this chapter thus describes a descendant of David (more on this in the next paragraph) who will possess a spirit of righteousness, judge the people with righteousness and cause the entire world to be filled withunderstanding of G-d, and even non-Jews will seek out his guidance. He will rule over an era of universal peace (according to Maimonides the references to lion lying with lamb is a poetic allusion to peace between nations, not a literal alteration of the natural order).
Also noteworthy is Ezekiel 37. In that chapter, G-d shows Ezekiel a vision of dried bones being restored to life, and tells him it refers to the eventual reunification and revival of Israel’s fortunes (this prophecy was spoken during the Babylonian exile). Verse 21 is the reference to the ingathering of exiles, marking this as a Messianic prophecy. This chapter more explicitly states that it a descendant of David will be king over the entire nation of Israel. (Actually, it says “David,” but it is common to
refer to a family by the name of that family’s patriarch.) It also explicitly mentions the existence of a Holy Temple in those times.
There are a number of other references to the Messianic Era, what life will be like then. However, these are the references I could find that speak of the person who will be the Messiah. Doesn’t seem to me like it’s 109 distinct references, but I suppose I might have missed some, or possibly the person saying that number might have been counting each verse in the chapters I quoted seperately, or he might have been counting references to the Messianic Era. But this is what I’ve been able to find.
The prophecy section of Daniel is written in different style and language than the rest. There is evidence to suggest it was added to Daniel 300 years after Daniel’s time
Quoth Maimonides, via cmkeller, via David B:
Quoth cmkeller, via David B:
Might I note here, that Maimonides doesn’t list any actual requirements? He says that if a man does all of those things, he is the Messiah, but he does not say that a man who does not do all of those things is not the Messiah. In other words, he presents a sufficient condition, not necessarily a necessary condition.
On to other matters: Christians (including the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church) often interpret John the Baptist as being identified, in some sense, with Elijah: Prophecies which refer to Elijah are said to be referring to John. I’m not quite sure of the rationale for this, seeing as the RCC expressly does not believe in reincarnation, and in any sense other than reincarnation, John the Baptist would seem to be a different person. On the other hand, I suppose it’s possible that J the B is a decendant of Elijah, and that the patronymic is being used there.
Also, a note to any Protestant dopers who may be trying to follow along with this conversation: Some of the books referenced by cmkeller (including Malachi and the prophetic portions of Daniel, I believe) are not considered canon by many Protestant denominations, and therefore will not be found in many Protestant bibles, such as the King James version. If you’re trying to follow along and yours does not include these books, you can try the Bible gateway on the Internet.
I’m afraid you are incorrect. A messiah must meet those requirement. If you say that not meeting them doesn’t mean that you aren’t the messiah, then you, I and any of the other 6+ billion people on earth could be the messiah.
In any event, Maimonides does present several requirements. Listed in his “Mishneh Torah” under Laws of Kings, chap 11, subchapter 1, they are:
Restore the Davidic monarchy
Rebuild the Temple
Gather in the Exiles
Restore the laws of the Torah
Bring sacrifices
Re-establish the Sabbatical and Jubilee years.*
Later on, in subchapter 4, Maimonides goes on to explain how a person can be considered to be the messiah. This is the quote that cmkeller gave earlier.
*
“If a king will arise from the House of David, who follows the Torah and performs the mitzvos (commandments) as David his ancestor did, as specified in the written Torah and the Oral Torah, and he causes all the Jews to follow suit, and fights wars for God, this person is a presumptive messiah. If he succeeds, and rebuilds the Temple in it’s place, and gathers in the exiles, then he is definitely the messiah.”*
The understanding, Chronos is that you must at least meet the requirements of a presumptive messiah before being considered the real deal.
Well, from the Jewish perspective, Elijah will return himself, not via a son or other descendant.
As for John the Baptist, correct me if I’m wrong, but IIRC, John is directly asked if he is Elijah and he denies it.
Zev Steinhardt
Danielinthewolvesden:
Sorry for the long wait. My life has been somewhat hectic in the past few weeks, and I just hadn’t had time to get on the net since last Wednesday. Fortunately, DavidB did indeed have that message still in his in-box. Does it answer your questions?
Thanks, David. And I would have e-mailed you directly, except that I thought you normally checked out the GQ section on a regular basis. I’ll know better next time.
Chaim Mattis Keller
OK, so Maimonides does specifically mention those things as requirements. What I meant to say, was that he doesn’t mention any requirements, per se, in the quoted passage. I’ll admit to ignorance on rabbinical writings.
As to the Elijah/John the Baptist thing, heck, I never said that Christians were logical :). I’m just saying what the beliefs are, I’m not even going to try to defend them.
Ah, see what happens when you wander out of your field? No, John seemed to deliberately model himself on Elijah, and encourage the comparisons (Matt. 3), but he denied being the Messiah (John1:20). John the Baptist was certainly a prophet*, and in some ways perhaps the last Prophet of the “old school”. Likely, if he had not chosen JC as the Messiah, he would be mentioned in the Talmud, at least. However, I agree that this does not make him “Elijah”, nad Christians must take that on faith. There are some reasonable similarities, enuf for some of those of that Time, when they REALLY wanted a Messiah, to accept John as such.
*note small case “p”.
Actually, Daniel, he was asked both. From John 1
19
Now this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was.
20
He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ. "
21
They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”
*
Zev Steinhardt
I’m not so sure of that last assertion. To be mentioned in the Talmud, you would probably have need to debated on the major halachic issues of the day.
In any event, simply believing that Jesus was the messiah would not have kept his opinions out if they were halachicly sound. There are two examples of this that I can give:
-
Rabbi Akiva, who is one of the most respected rabbis mentioned in the Talmud, thought that Bar Kochba was the messiah. It is true that after Bar Kochba was killed he changed his opinion on this, but, while he supported Bar Kochba, he was not shunned by his fellow rabbis.
-
Acher (Rabbi Elisha ben Avuyah). Acher (literally “the other”) was a heretic who once had been a great Rabbi. In fact, Rabbi Meir, who is one of the most oft-mentioned in the Talmud studied under him. He learned to seperate the good from the bad in Acher’s teachings. Whenever the Talmud states “other say so-and-so,” the opinion is attributed to Rabbi Meir, who learned it from Acher.
Zev Steinhardt
Ah, outquoted on the Gospels, and by a Talmudic scholar no less. Well, you see, zev, the “Synoptic” Gospels ie Matthew, Mark & Luke all agree that John the Baptist is Elijah, and J. the Baptist is shown as going along with that, at least to the point of modeling himself after that great Prophet. But in the Gospel of John, J. the Baptist is quoted as denying that. It is assumed by Christian scholars that the Baptist is just being extra humble here. He was certainly a very humble man. JC’s “cousin”, too.
As far as “J. the Baptist” being a (large case P) Jewish Prophet, well, you’re the expert there. He was mentioned in Josephus, tho, I beleive.