Thanks for the info, Daniel. I knew there were differences between the Gospels, but, not having read them all cover to cover, I was not aware of this difference with regard to John the Baptist. Thanks for the correction.
Zev Steinhardt
As something of an amateur bibilical scholar, I find that the foregoing is pretty good and gives you some idea of just how complex this subject can be. In fact, one can spend years on this subject alone and in it’s study. As a Christian I guess I can say that most people that call themselves Christians have never really acquainted themselves with the “Old” Testament. I should also point out that many Jews are far more ignorant of the New Testament, but more on that later.
Christians sometimes laugh to themselves wondering why the Rabbi’s at the time of Christ could not recognize him as Messiah. The reason for this was that during those times there were many sects (Pharisees, Saducees and the like) who spent a great deal of time pondering these very questions. Some believed that the Scriptures, if studied long enough and hard enough, would eventually lead one into a picture of who the Messiah would be, when he would come and what he would even look like. Others argued that it was impossible, even with the Scriptures at hand to ever be certain of the Truth.
From the perspective of the New Testament we can be certain that the above debate was in full swing when Jesus came on the scene. In fact, during His trial, prior to His crucifixion, some of the Jewish Elders in the Sanhedrin say some things which lead me to believe that there was more or less agreement on several items regarding the Messiah.
I won’t go into Chapter and Verse here, but the things that were more or less agreed upon were that the Messiah would come from the lineage of David, that he would be born in Bethelem and that he would do great “works”. There was some debate about the “works”, however it is too bad for history that the Jewish Elders who tried Christ could not have adopted the tack of those that later tried the aposotles in the book of Acts. There they simply said, “If these people are of not of God, they will not prosper. However, if they are of God, nothing we do will prevail against them.” (Paraphrase - I can get you the cite on this if you want!)
It always has seemed to me a cruel twist of fate that Christ did not “appear” to the learned Rabbi’s of the day, but enjoyed confounding them. He took his Message to the most ignorant people of the area i.e. sinners and fishing folk.
But I digress! (Told you this was a long topic) One Bible teacher of mine told me that the whole of the Old Testament could be viewed as a picture of the Messiah’s time to come. So, in essence, all of it is prophesy. (I already know what you are saying, but here’s one short example.
The story of Moses not going over into the Promised Land, is a picture of the Law (whom Moses represented) and Grace, which the coming Messiah represented. In other words, the Law, as practiced, even as perfectly as Moses did, will not “save” you and allow you entrance into Heaven. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other word pictures of Messiah as High Priest, etc. (What about Noah! He “saved” some and others were left to die.)
Back to my one comment about Christians and Jews. It has been my good fortune to awaken many Jewish brethren to what is contained in the New Testament. The more they know of the Old Testament, the more they are surprised by what they find in the New. The story of a humble Jewish boy, born to save his people.
Well, you are right in that they were expecting a Messiah around then. But JC did not fit the general idea of a messiah, to many Jews. The radicals wanted a ‘super’ warrior-king, to get rid of the Romans. Others wanted a ‘priest-king’. There were some others who were thought to be the Messiah, including Hillel, and even J. the Baptist. In any case, it was a very bad time for the Jews to get militaristic, as the Romans were ‘unbeatable’ for hundreds of years. Oddly, one of the “defenders” of early Christianity was Gamaliel, a grandson of Hillel, who said to leave them alone, as if their Messiah was false, the faith would die out, and if it was true, they should not go against them.
When it comes to almost any Jewish issue, certainly related to non-halachic (non-legal) issues, there are a large number of opinions. That doesn’t mean every Rabbi believed in every opinion – it just means the work is more difficult, and it becomes necessary to find out which Rabbi believed what, when and why.
With many of thesee issues, particularly the issue of the Jewish view of the Messiah and redemption, I strongly recommend looking at the late Prof. Eprhaim Urbach’s * The Sages *. It is a very comprehensive look into the view of the Rabbis of the Talmud on almost all issues relating to Judaism’s beliefs. As far as the Messiah issue, the chapters “The Written Law and the Oral Law” and “On Redemption” are particularly relevant. He discusses the views of various Rabbis on the issue, as well as the Christian view at the time. I know that it would be easier to read a synopsis in a post in this forum, but in this case – find the book.
Additionally, I think this quote by Maimonides are very important for this discussion:
"As for all of these things (descriptions of the coming of the Messiah), no man will know how they will be until they happen, for the issues are unclear by the prophets. The sages as well did not have a tradition with these issues, but rather (came to their conclusions) by the (order) of the verses (in the Bible). Therefore there are differences of opinion in these issues.
But in any case, the order of the events (of the Messiah), and their details are not the main point of the religion. A person should never become occupied with the words of legends, and not deal too much with the midrashim (legends) dealing with these issues, and should not make them the main focus (of the religion) – ** for they do not bring (a person) to fear (of sin) and not to love (of God). **"
(Laws of Kings 12:2)
choens:
I don’t believe there’s any Rabbinical understanding that says that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem; any reference to Bethlehem is an alternate means of referring to his descent from David, who was from Bethlehem.
Chaim Mattis Keller