Where's Your Messiah Now?

[Fiver]

CKDextHavn:

Some Jews are Levites, claiming their lineage from Levi, the son of Jacob. Some Jews are Kohanim (priests), claiming lineage from Aaron, brother of Moses.

But I thought the Levites are the priestly tribe, and that Moses and Aaron were Levites. What makes the Kohanim distinct from them?

I would very much like to get one of our Islam friends to comment on Islam’s take on a Messiah (distinct from a prophet?)

I would very much like that too.

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by CKDextHavn *
(Chaim may think this is blasphemy, but there are records of people who decided to upgrade themselves by claiming to be a Kohan when they immigrated to America, and there was no one to disprove it by saying, “I knew your father.”)

Old joke:

Ignoramus goes in to the Rabbi - he wants to be a kohen. The rabbi tell him “I’m sorry, that’s not something you can just decide to do. Why don’t you concentrate on other things…be a scholar etc?” The guy is adamant. Finally the rabbi askes “why is it so important that you become a kohen?” The guy says "MY FATHER WAS A KOHEN, MY GRANDFATHER WAS A KOHEN, AND MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WAS A KOHEN - I ALSO WANT TO BE A KOHEN!!!"

[cmkeller]

IzzyR:

My recollection is that their lineage was through a maternal link.

Possibly. I guess that would disqualify them, then.

Dave Swaney:

Considering that King David lived, what, 3000 years ago?, I would be kind of shocked if there is anyone of Jewish heritage who wasn’t descended from him in some way.

This is undoubtedly true, but the key is the descent has to be entirely on the paternal side (in other words, the son of the son of the son, etc…of David. No daughters in that chain at all) in order to be valid as the Messiah. Those are, no doubt, much rarer.

Danielinthewolvesden:

Well, my source say the line of Hillel died out quite some time ago (at least by direct male descent- Gamaliel VI, died 425AD).

Well if IzzyR is right that they had been maternally descended, it’s a moot point anyway. But my understanding is that Gamaliel VI in 425 was the last holder of the office of Nasi in Palestine before the Romans abolished the office…not that the man himself necessarily died without descendants.

So, is there anyone now alive that claims he has a direct, unbroken line back to David? I would think that someone, by now, if he had such a claim, would have started the “monarchist party” in Isreal, to have himself made King.

Well, it could just be that the democratic attitudes of Western society (despite the existence of a few monarchist parties) have made such a family decide that it’s not something worth trumpeting (by which I mean that the family itself might have the democratic sensibilities, not merely that they think it would be politically unwise).

CKDextHavn:

I think it would be difficult to prove lineage from David.

Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.

(Chaim may think this is blasphemy, but there are records of people who decided to upgrade themselves by claiming to be a Kohan when they immigrated to America, and there was no one to disprove it by saying, “I knew your father.”)

I’m not quite the stone-thrower you apparently take me for, Dex. I’m sure people are capable of lying or making honest mistakes. It’s only the Torah that I consider infallible.

But Jewish communities didn’t, because those events weren’t “sacraments.”

True, but there are other documents. Donor lists, yahrtzeit lists, inheritance/sale documents for property, judgement records…Granted, a lot was lost due to anti-semitism, but there could still be quite a bit out there for a determined researcher to find.

Five:

Aha! So, correct me if I’m wrong, when Christianity presents itself as Judaism fulfilled (or “postgraduate Judaism,” as Cecil once put it), does it cast John the Baptist in the role of Elijah?

You’d know better than I would. MAybe some other Christian Dopers can confirm for us…tomndebb, are you there? Libertarian?

But I thought the Levites are the priestly tribe, and that Moses and Aaron were Levites. What makes the Kohanim distinct from them?

Levites are indeed the tribe that Aaron was from. Of the Levites, only his descendants are Kohanim. All other Levites who are not descended from Aaron are called “Levites” in the vernacular, although technically, Kohanim are Levites as well, who happen to have certain special rules.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

<< I’m not quite the stone-thrower you apparently take me for, Dex. >>

Naw, Chaim, I was just pullin’ your leg. I didn’t expect serious disagreement on the question of whether everyone calling themselves a Kohan or a Levite was REALLY such.

<< there are other documents. Donor lists, yahrtzeit lists, inheritance/sale documents for property, judgement records… >>

Yes, but those don’t necessarily show lineage or parentage or children. We’re in essential agreement, that tracking lineage AT ALL is very difficult for Jews, just to go back a few centuries. And if you were trying to back a few millenia (to get to David, say), then it’s even more difficult, as you get to the period before last/family names. BTW, the archaeological record doesn’t really even show that David existed; the closest is a carving that refers to the House of David.

My basic point was that, when the Messiah does come, tracing his lineage back to David will be the LEAST problematic. If the dead awaken, and swords are all beaten into plowshares, and lions lie down with lambs, and the world acknowledges the One God,… then tracking lineage will be purely an administrative issue.

[tomndebb]

The Gospels draw some pretty stong parallels between John the Baptist and Elijah. There is no place at which a Gospel verse says “John was Elijah.”

The authors may have wanted to avoid the uproar within the Jewish community that so bold a declaration would have caused.
The Gospels may have simply been written after Christianity had moved out from being merely a Jewish heresy and the authors may have felt that the (primarily Gentile) audience would not have been that interested in an explicit connection.

I have never seen a commentary on while the parallels are implicit rather than explicit.

[tomndebb]

“why the parallels”

[Chronos]

Quoth Five:

Aha! So, correct me if I’m wrong, when Christianity presents itself as Judaism fulfilled (or “postgraduate Judaism,” as Cecil once put it), does it cast John the Baptist in the role of Elijah?

Yes, Christians do cast John the Baptist as Elijah (the “voice crying out in the wilderness, ‘prepare the way of the Lord’”), but I’m not sure how, seeing as we Christians officially don’t believe in reincarnation. We can’t even argue that Elijah just came back down from heaven (according to the OT, he never actually died, but was carried to Heaven in a flaming chariot) and called himself John, because in the Gospels, John started on his mission of announcing the Messiah before he was even born (He’s said to have lept in his mother’s womb when Mary, then pregnant with Jesus, entered the house). Of course, non-Christians have been known to point this out as a serious flaw in Christrine doctrine. Don’t ask me to resolve it.

[cmkeller]

CKDextHavn:

Yes, but those don’t necessarily show lineage or parentage or children.

Well, obviously the researcher would have to find some that do.

BTW, the archaeological record doesn’t really even show that David existed; the closest is a carving that refers to the House of David.

Well, true, but there were people in later generations who were acknowledged as direct descendants of David. The most recent I can think of would be the exilarches of Babylonian Jewry. To go back further, the royal line, at least biblically, goes as far as Zerubabel, in the early Second Temple era. If anyone could (in theory; as we agree, it would be quite a task) prove they were descended from Zerubabel they presumably wouldn’t need to do the digging to prove that Zerubabel himself was a Davidic descendant, the Bible would be proof enough (for the Rabbis who would be evaluating such claims).

Chaim Mattis Keller