Jewish cultural questions

Great Debates
1

First, the disclaimers.

  1. I’m not trying to get a rise out of anyone. This is a serious inquiry;
  2. I am not drunk. In fact, I do not drink and even though it is a holiday weekend, I still did not imbibe;
  3. I’m not Jewish (this should be very clear by my questions) :slight_smile:
  4. Please try not to fire insults at me. What I will ask I did not make up, and I’ve been wondering about it for about 20 years now. The anonymity of the internet has permitted me to ask questions I would not feel comfortable asking my Jewish friends for fear of looking like a jackass if my source was just pulling my leg.
  5. Finally, apologies in advance to anyone I may offend, even though it’s not my intent.

I placed this thread in GD because I wasn’t sure where it would go or if there are factual answers to these questions. Mods, please feel free to move it if you disagree.

Now then. I grew up in an area of the country with very few jewish folks. Other than what I learned from TV or books, I knew very little about the culture. When I went to college, I met a few jewish people, but my friendships with them were like my friendships with most everyone else… I never really explored religion with anyone.

So, I graduate and I get my first job. One of my co-workers (and office mate) was Jewish, and we began to have conversations about his religion.

A few of the nuggets he shared with me:

  1. He said that Jews believed (well, he believed, and therefore I believed that *all * Jews believed) that only 144,000 jewish souls would make it to heaven. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. He said that this is one of the reasons why many Jews are so driven to succeed in this life here on earth, because space is limited and anything they can do to make themselves a better candidate for one of those 12,000 slots in whichever tribe they belonged to. This brought a :dubious: from me, but far be it from me to question another person’s religion. Is God really judging your worthiness for heaven by your portfolio here on earth? I mean, come on now. Does anyone really think any spots are left? :wink: Jews have been around for a long time! He further explained that the belief is that the reality is that few if any spots are left in heaven, so making your life as comfortable as possible while alive (i.e. heaven on earth) was the best one could hope for.

  2. He also said that Jews believe that only Jews go to heaven, and those Jews that go must be born Jewish. Therefore, if you convert to Judaism, you don’t have a shot, and neither do any of your children. I know a lot of religions believe it’s their way or no way, so I wasn’t completely shocked by this one, but I didn’t think it was fair that a converted Jew wasn’t given a fair shot, not to mention any children. Another :dubious: from me, but hey, I’m learning, right?

  3. Another nugget he shared was that the son of God (in the Christian world, Jesus) would be born to a jewish woman. But he was a bit fuzzy on how they would exactly know that this baby would be the right baby. I asked him why some people believed Jesus was the son of God and some did not, and he gave me an answer I didn’t follow very well. But the basic idea I got from him was that there were certain criteria that this child would meet, and acceptance would follow. But would it? I mean, Jesus was jewish, correct? So some believed, and some didn’t. Why would this time be any different? Do all current 21st century jewish parents believe that each of their children has the potential to be the messiah?

  4. Finally, he said that his parents, (and apparently most jewish parents), pressure their children to marry jewish partners to keep things within the “culture” and keep the “bloodlines” pure (his words, not mine).
    So, Jewish dopers. Was this guy pulling my leg, full of shit, or completely confused? Is there any truth at all in this stuff, or was someone having fun at my expense?

I know many mixed marriages, for example, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t pressure from the family.

Thanks for shedding some light on this (and me).

2

You could have put this in GQ because it has a pretty clear factual answer. However, I’m going to leave it here as it could get messy.

Based on the statements you have quoted, my first impression would be that your co-worker was not Jewish, or was, perhap, a Jew who had converted to one of the odder Christian “messianic Jew” groups.

Not one of his claims is valid for Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform Judaism.
The whole 144,000 souls bit is taken from Christian imagery in the book of Revelation (and is not meant literally, even there). Exodus reports (whether factually or not) over 600,000 people in the trek across the Sinai, so if they held that belief (understanding that ten of the tribes were pretty thoroughly destroyed in 721 B.C.E.), they would have a religion in which it was pretty much impossible for any current person to get into heaven.

More importantly, the whole notion of “getting into heaven” is rather low on the list of goals in Jewish theology.

The second claim is absolutely false. There is nothing in Jewish theology that indicates that only Jews can get into heaven. It is simply not part of their belief system. (In fact, one might even posit that it is easier for Gentiles to get into heaven, since they need only follow the seven Noachide laws (that are explained in 63 injunctions) while Jews are required by their Covenant to obey 613 mitzvot precribed in the Torah.)

The Jews have no belief about the “Son of God,” which is an exclusively Christian belief. The Jewish Messiah is simply a righteous human who will bring about God’s rule on Earth, born to the line of David (making the Jewish mother pretty essential, but having no bearing on a “Son of God”). (A divine “Son of God” belief implies more than one divine Person–part of the Trinity for Christians–and such a belief is anathema to Jews who believe strictly in one God.)

Jewish parents wish to influence their children to marry within the Jewish faith (no bloodlines needed) for the same reasons that Catholic, Baptist, or LDS parents wish that their children will marry within their faith–so that they will benefit from the blessing of God by following the true faith that God has passed down through their religion. This attitude has frayed a bit at the edges in our society in the last forty years, (for Jews and Christians, alike), but it has to do with theology and nothing at allto do with “bloodlines.”

Your co-worker really sounds as though he has no clue regarding Judaism.

3

Thanks for the answers, tomndebb. As you may have guessed, I have even less of a clue regarding Judaism.

After reading your reply, I have to say that I am a bit relieved that my B.S. detector still works somewhat. Even in matters of someone else’s faith/religion where I have little or no knowledge, some things just don’t *sound * right. Perhaps he was pulling my chain, but for what purpose, I really don’t know.

If I may ask, since you seem to be well versed in this subject, you say

How will the Jews know the Messiah is born? Are their specific “signs” defined that will identify the Messiah as the one?

4

The belief that 144,000 Jews and no one else will enter Heaven comes only from the book of Revelations, and not from anywhere in Jewish text. The Revelation from John says that once the End Times begin (it’s either at the first trumpet or the first seal, I don’t remember which), the only people who can be saved are 144,000 Jewish virgin males, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes. This poses a number of problems. First, eleven of the twelve tribes don’t exist, and they probably never did. Second, limiting it to such a small number made sense back in the first century, when Christianity was a small religion. It makes less sense now, when Christianity is a much larger religion. (It’s worth noting that when LaHaye and Jenkins wrote Left Behind, they bumped the number of people taken in The Rapture to 144,000,000, and apparently hoped that no one would notice the difference.

The general line on the Messiah, as decided by various groups of Rabbis over the centuries, is that there will be only one Messiah, and he will be a Jewish male descended from King David. We’ll know who it is because the Prophet Elijah will arrive to announce him during the Passover festival. This must take place in the city of Jerusalem.

Christians (if they are biblical literalists) generally believe that the prophecy was fulfilled when John the Baptist baptized Jesus, reasoning that John was actually Elijah.

Nowadays the Orthodox continue to await the arrival of the Messiah, while the other branches of Judaism pay little attention to the issue. Everybody still opens the door for Elijah on Passover, but I think that almost all congregations treat that part of the ceremony as a joke. (It’s traditional to pour a cup of wine for Elijah and place it in the center of the table. At some point, one of the adults pours out the wine, which is supposedly to prove to the children that Elijah did actually enter the building. As with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, most children quickly figure out what’s really happening.)

5

Well, first off, Revelation does NOT say that only 144000 anything will be saved, but that they are the first batch of the saved. The very chapter introducing the of the 144000 Israelites, Revelation 7 (interspersed between the Sixth and Seventh Seals opening), also shows an innumerable multitude of people from all nations in Heaven.

And cite for the LEFT BEHIND rapturing of 144,000,000? Those books were written for people who know Revelation backwards & forwards. “Hoped no one would notice the difference”…

Re the OP- I did know a Jewish guy, definitely NOT Messianic, in grad school who believed that the forces of Gog & Magog would be defeated by 144000 ultra-holy Jews invoking The Name. He wasn’t aware that the number came from the Book of Revelation but he wasn’t phased by that info either. Btw, I didn’t regard anything he said as being at all representative of anyone but himself. He was a bit … special.

6

The messiah will be descended from David, will be devout and obey the commandments, will rebuild the Temple, will fight wars against the enemies of God and Israel, will bring the rest of the Jews back to Israel, will cause them to obey the commandments, and will rule in peace and help bring peace and the love and fear of God to the world.

So see, simple.

7

I’ll just add to Captain Amazing’s post that as you can see, none of the signs we have would tell us that the Messiah has been born. For all I know, the Messiah has already been born. When Elijah announces his arrival, we’ll know who the Messiah is and that he will now begin to fulfill the public Messianic role. But we won’t be able to look at any particular baby and recognize him as the Messiah.

8

And the old joke goes about the guy who had the job to sit at the city gates and announce when the Messiah arrives … “Hey the pays lousy but I got a job for life!”

9

Isn’t the “only 144,000 in heaven” mostly a Jehovah’s Witness teaching?

10

This is really interesting to me. As I understand it, the split that occurred between Judaism and Christianity is when Christ was born, and some Jews (I never know when to capitalize and when to not capitalize, so please forgive me) believed he was the Messiah.

Or was it? As I read other answers (specifically tomndebb’s), Jews do not believe the Messiah will be the son of God. So in essence, this was a feature original to Christianity. Did the Jews during Christ’s time believe they got the announcement from Elijah that they were waiting for? Or was Elijah’s apperance irrelavant to Christ and his following?

Clearly, I need to take a class.

I also need to look up my old co-worker and ask him what type of Judaism he was supposed to be practicing. I never thought of asking, but based on the replies so far, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of light bulbs going on, which means either he was kind of like FriarTed’s acquaintance (i.e. “special”) or he was yanking me around the room like a yo-yo and giggling like a school girl in his car on the way home.

11

Yes, very much so.
My former co-worker was doing her mission work here in KC for the Witness’

You have to be of a Jew of Lineage. You have to definate proof that you have lineage , and you need a calling.

She knew she was never going to heaven. She is 37 and only had met 1 person who had recieved a “calling” to sit at the table.

12

If there is absolutely no chance of you getting into heaven in your chosen faith, what’s the point? Other than the laws of the state, there wouldn’t seem to be any moral code to keep anyone in line. There would be mayhem! Speaking for myself, I’d be trying to get away with as much as possible to improve my lot in life. If I don’t have a chance to get to heaven, I’m going to be as comfortable as I can be while I’m alive.

Or, is there some other form of reward other than heaven that keeps those that aren’t going to heaven in line?

This is very interesting (and very confusing). If anyone out there can recommend a book that breaks down a few of the world’s major religions (aside from the Bible, Koran, etc.) I would appreciate any suggestions.

13

kurahee, one actually aimed at a Middle School age group but that does a great job giving short synopses is My Friend’s Beliefs. It makes for a good quick survey. In Judaism, and some other faiths, the emphasis is not in heaven, but in doing the right thing, well, because it is right. The break between Judaism and Christianity was not all that sudden. “Messiah” was almost a political creature for Judaism. The break occurred as the Pauline version of Christianity, heavily influenced by Greek thought and aimed at a non-Jewish population, emerged as the dominant force.

14

This sounds like when my Jewish friends and showed my non-Jewish GF the “Hebrew Handshake” that only other Jews know.

15

kurahee:

The following are from an Orthodox viewpoint, and Jews of other denominations may disagree with my answers:

No way. No such thing in Judaism.

Both not true. Jews believe that non-Jews who live their lives by the “seven Noahide laws” go to heaven just fine. And converts to Judaism are Jews in every way, heavenly and Earthly.

Judaism does not believe in a “son of God” concept. We expect the Messiah to be a fully human boy, born of the male lineage of King David (so not all current parents believe their kid could be the Messiah, as certain folks, like Kohanim, know they are not descended by the male line from David). We won’t know who he is at birth, we will know when he accomplishes Messianic things, like the return of exiled Jews to Israel and to Torah-observance and the rebuiling of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. As others have mentioned, Elijah is expected to return to overt Earthly existence to announce the Messiah’s arrival; this clearly takes a lot of the guesswork out of things.

Not bloodlines (see above about converts) but yes about the culture. We Jews believe we have a religious covenant with G-d that defines certain responsibilities on ourselves and our progeny (going back to Sinai), in perpetuity. If a Jew marries a non-Jew (that is, an unconverted non-Jew), this weakens the generation transference of the sense of covenantal responsibility.

16

One group of Jews in the First Century came to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was particularly special. They came to believe that he was the messiah and (at least after a few years–we have no contemorary accounts), came to believe that John the Baptizer had fulfilled the role of Elijah.

One problem with their views is that the attributes of the messiah that the followers of Jesus perceived are not necessarily those attributes that had been perceived by the Jewish people up to that time. The Scriptural references on which Jews rest their messianic beliefs (as noted in the early 20th century Jewish Encyclopedia, to which the links do not always work), can be found at the entry for Messiah:

The future ideal king:
Isaiah 9: 1 - 6
Isaiah 11: 1 - 10
Isaiah 32: 1 - 5

(The Immanuel passage of Isaiah 7: 14, alluded to by Matthew (1: 23) is not considered Messianic in Judaism.)

Further references:
Micah 5: 1, 3 - 8
Jeremiah 23: 5 - 6 and 32: 15 - 16
Jeremiah 30: 9
Hosea 3: 5
Ezekiel 17: 23
Ezekiel 34: 23 ff
Ezekiel 37: 24 ff
Haggai 2: 23
Zechariah 3: 8
Zechariah 6: 12
Zechariah 9: 9 - 10

Associating the Messiah with divinity or with leaving and returning were simply not part of traditional belief among the Jews.

17

Did Harry S. Truman have any Jewish blood? ;j

18

It’s worthwhile to point out that Jesus was not the first person to gain a following as the Messiah.

Shimon Bar Koziva, AKA Bar Kochva, who led a revolt against the Romans when they ruled Israel, was thought by the trusted Torah great Rabbi Akiva to have serious Messiah potential. That didn’t pan out, of course.

There have been many false Messiahs over the years. When Jews experienced a particularly hard period of violence and/or pogroms, like the Crusades or a period of violence known as “tach v’tat” (in, I think, 1648-1649), they wanted to believe that the horrors were just the precursor to redemption. In those times, people were especially susceptible to being fooled into thinking that someone was the Messiah. It was a great con.

One of the most famous offenders was Shabbetai Tzvi, who gained a large following. Even after most people rejected his claims of messianism, his followers remained loyal as a new faction of Judaism known as the Donmeh sect.

So Jesus was unique mainly in the strength, and eventual volume, of his following. From a Jewish perspective, he’s just another false Messiah, albeit one with serious staying power. The son of G-d aspect is, as you said, specific to Christianity. I don’t know when it was introduced.

19

Actually, as your link points out, Bar Kochba came well after Jesus. Interestingly, there doesn’t seem to have been a great deal of interest in the messianic idea prior to the fall of the Maccabean dynasty. At least, I’ve never seen any mention of early candidates for the job. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, it was more common for the Jews to see external leaders (esp. Alexander the Great) as some sort of liberator.

20

Definitely not a Jewish belief.

There’s also the minor matter that 10 of the 12 Jewish tribes are “lost”- nobody knows who their descendants are today, and most of those descendants probably don’t practice Judaism.

Nope. In fact, one of the things that strikes converts to Judaism from Christianity as distinctive about Judaism is that Jews don’t believe that all non-Jews are doomed.

No. We don’t believe that the Messiah will be any more a “child of God” than anyone else is.

This one has a kernel of truth, though he’s telling it in a completely distorted way.

The issue is this: Orthodox and Conservative Judaism believe that the only way to be born Jewish is to be born from a Jewish mother. It doesn’t matter what religion your father is, and it doesn’t even really matter if you’re raised Jewish. If your mother was Jewish, you can start being Jewish, join a synagogue, etc, without having to convert, even if you’ve been practicing another religion until that point. Even if you were baptized or converted to another religion, you don’t have to convert to go back to Judaism. If your mother wasn’t Jewish and you want to be Jewish, you have to go through a conversion process (which involves studying Judaism, immersion in a ritual bath or mikveh, and circumcision for men).

Reform and (I think) Reconstructionism and Jewish Renewal accept children of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother as Jewish, as long as they’re raised Jewish.

The issue for him is that, if he marries a non-Jewish woman, his children will be considered non-Jewish by Orthodox and Conservative Jews, even if he raises them Jewish. He could, in theory, have his children converted to Judaism (this is what is done for adopted kids), but a lot of rabbis would be reluctant to do that if the child was going to be raised in a not-entirely-Jewish home. I’m pretty sure most rabbis wouldn’t do it if they knew that the childrens’ mother was going to continue to go to church and celebrate Christian holidays in their home.

Some Jewish people put a lot of emphasis on marrying someone with the right bloodline- usually that means descendants of notable Jewish scholars. But not all do.

Remember, too, that some branches of Judaism consider a mixed marriage of Jewish man/non-Jewish woman and non-Jewish man/Jewish woman to be very different.